I think Bill did run into this character and I'd guess that guy is from COE or DOE. Going back to my standpipe/riser analogy isn't the standpipe a standpipe when it feeds a hose valve and a riser when it feeds a sprinkler? I'd argue that in the same respect when the route is thru a six inch riser that turns at the ceiling, then thru a 3 inch pipe perpendicular to the "6" main feed" & then thru the "3" x-main" to a "1 1/2" branch line" until the last head is discharging then we have the configuration and, as Todd said," the semantics as described. If instead the water is going up the riser, taking the turn and then the head protecting the riser room tapped directly from the 6" is discharging then that feed main as defined in the first example is now a branch line. Bill, I think you, or your AHJ, is looking at this thing by defining it by what it looks like vis-a-vis the definition rather than by how it functions vis-a-vis the definition. Does a Koala "Bear" magically become a bear because we call it that? Is a whale a fish because it looks like one? Anatomy says no in both cases. Remember that Little Golden Book where the animals find an egg and speculate on what will hatch? Then the difficulty they encounter when a platypus emerges because they can't find a place for it in their pre-existing and limited definitions? If I decide that big pipes are feed mains, medium pipes are cross mains and small pipes are branch lines and that as they run from riser to end they can only be defined as such then it follows that heads can only be on little pipes and never on bigger pipes feeding them. If, on the other hand, I define branch lines as those directly feeding heads then any pipe CAN be a branch line.
On Nov 23, 2007 7:54 AM, Todd Williams - FPDC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Let's sit back and take a look at what we are trying to do here. > Install a sprinkler system to provide satisfactory protection against > fire in a particular building. Where or how the sprinklers are > connected to pipes should not be an issue, as long as adequate water > gets to the fire (with allowance for minimum pipe size, etc). > Semantics over what the definition of a branch line is? I'm waiting > for the AHJ to come at me with the comment that I can't attach a 1" > drop to a 6" main because it doesn't meet the definition of a branch > line. Bill, did someone actually challenge you on this? Tell him the > drop is a 1" branch line looking down and the feed to the pendent > sprinkler off the branch line is fed by an arm-over. > > > > > At 09:49 AM 11/23/2007, you wrote: > >Agree with the "why shouldn't we?" but I'm looking for the "where does > >it say we can?". Although the simple answer is "we do it all the time", > >the 2007 text change language has created a situation where the only > >place to attach a SINGLE sprinkler is a branch line. The 2002 text > >could have been interpreted this way but the 2007 has made it explicit. > > > >I have a branch line with 5 outlets. The first two are upright > >sprinklers, the third one feeds two pendents under a duct, the last two > >are uprights. > > > >I think all of us would consider this a branch line, but the new > >definition now states that part of this branch line is a cross main > >since the piece under the duct is an independent branch line. Then, > >since the definition of a cross main does not include a sprinkler, the > >last two heads have to be piped from a single outlet on the "cross > >main". > > > >Twisted logic I agree but I can't find another definition to get me out > >of this AHJ mess. > > > >For a hydraulically calculated system, who cares where you add a > >sprinkler? Can a single sprinkler or a branch line be fed from the side > >of a riser as long as you maintain waterflow alarm capability? > > > >Bill Brooks > > > >-------- Original Message -------- > >Subject: Re: Branch Lines / Cross Mains > >From: "Ron Greenman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Date: Wed, November 21, 2007 7:24 pm > >To: [email protected] > > > >Just as a standpipe can serve double duty as a sprinkler riser why > >shouldn't a cross-main or feed main also serve as a branch line. > >Ultimately were always talking about one or more standardized holes in > >our hose leaking in a defined area. Who cares what size and name you > >use for the hose as long as it will properly support the leaks. Enough > >wet guy stuff. Nearly time to eat. > > > >On Nov 21, 2007 12:59 PM, John Drucker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > For the feed main arrangement is there a method of waterflow detection > > > and annunciation corresponding to the smallest sprinkler ? > > > > > > Happy Thanksgiving all ! > > > > > > John > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland > > > Huggins > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 3:51 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Subject: Re: Branch Lines / Cross Mains > > > > > > certainly. The definitions do not address such hybrid items but that > > > doesn't stop one from doing it. > > > > > > Roland > > > > > > On Nov 21, 2007, at 12:11 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > > Can a sprinkler head be connected to a cross main or feed main > > > > (directly or by way of a sprig, drop, arm over, or return bend)? > > > > > > > > After you answer the question read the revised definition of a branch > > > > line in 2007, 3.5.1. > > > > > > > > Bill Brooks > > > > > > > > William N. Brooks, P.E. > > > > Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. > > > > 372 Wilett Drive > > > > Severna Park, MD 21146 > > > > 410-544-3620 Phone > > > > 410-544-3032 FAX > > > > 412-400-6528 Cell > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject > > > > field) > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > > > > > >-- > >Ron Greenman > >at home.... > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, Connecticut > www.fpdc.com > 860.535.2080 > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
