With out resorting to the "think" dig I appreciate the conversation and I think most member do as well.
Compressibility and expansion due to temperature are two entirely different phenomena. Compressibility I would describe the volume change as a result of pushing on something. Expansion and contraction is the rate of the molecules trying to get away from each other? Yes each play on each other in a closed system with the generic PV=T formula. Yes that's the IDEAL gas law and we are far from ideal here. And the rates of compressibility and expansion are not the same for the agents here or even related within each agent. I don't know what to say about your experiment other than it's not relevant to the issue. With plastic on top you basically have an open system that is to say the volume of the container can change. In a steel piping system the volume of the container can not change. Or at least to say it changes very small relative to the size of the system. Do your same experiment with capped steel pipe and see the results through a pressure gauge. You might need the oven or a pot of hot water. The misses at home or the boss at work might get upset if you put steel in the microwave. The other problem I see with your experiment is the scale. The changes in the water volume may be imperceptible to the naked eye. Obviously there is either some disagreement here or at least a communication issue. This is good because it will make both of us sharper. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rodney Hamm Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 8:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Test/Drain at the Riser I am sorry to be so blunt, but you need to think a little about what you have stated. Air is compressible and water is not compressible. Temperature increases or decreases do not affect the pressure of a section of pipe filled with 100% water until the water begins to boil. Temperature increases will cause the pressure to increase if the same section of pipe is filled with air. Temperature decreases will cause the pressure to decrease if the same section of pipe is filled with air. If you do not believe me, try a quick little experiment. Take a completely 100% full glass of cold water (plastic would be best) pull some saran wrap over the top very tight and add a rubber band really tight to make sure no air leaks out. Make sure there are no air bubbles on top. Put the full glass of water in the microwave on HIGH for 2 minutes. No pressure builds up inside the glass because water is not compressible and does not expand. Pressure will eventually build if you let the water start to boil. THEN do the same exact thing with a glass half full of cold water. Using saran wrap and a tight rubber band, you will see the pressure increases dramatically and eventually will burst the saran wrap after the balloon effect! If you have significant trapped air pockets in a sprinkler system, the ONLY time you do not need a PRV is if you are absolutely certain the sprinkler piping does not experience significant temperature changes. High temps to low temps will cause the pressure to decrease and can potentially allow water to enter the system (i.e. false fire alarms) and low temps to high temps will cause the pressure to increase and can potentially cause damage to the sprinkler system piping (i.e. leaks, ruptures, deformation of sprinkler plugs, etc.). You stated the following: "With a static system increasing in temperature the air compresses and stabilizes the pressures." Actually, in this instance increasing the temperature the air does not compress it actually expands and instead of stabilizing the static pressure it drastically increases the static pressure. Rodney K. Hamm, P.E. President/Owner Falcon Fire Protection Office (478) 953-1677 Cell (478) 396-6988 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:53:14 -0500 From: "Chris Cahill" <[email protected]> Subject: RE: Test/Drain at the Riser To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <e86bfbe0cd6e4eae97886a3b39d3d...@chris2005> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rodney said "It is an indisputable fact that trapped air is a huge problem in gridded systems and THE reason why pressure relief valves are required on gridded systems is specifically because of the trapped air in these systems." Sorry it's the LACK of trapped air that is the problem as it relates to pressure. I suggest you read '02-7.1.2.2 and the handbook. If you have air you don't need a pressure relief on a system. Why? It's right in the text of the standard. Air is compressible. A spring if you will. For our purposes water is not compressible. With a static system increasing in temperature the air compresses and stabilizes the pressures. That's what the pressure tank on your well is doing, that is what an expansion tank on an anti-freeze is doing. Take the air out and there is nothing to compress. Minor temperature fluctuations then radically change pressure. I can show you systems that all the air has been deliberately removed. It takes a cup of water to change the pressure a couple psi. Ever opened an inspector test valve and waited 30-60 sec for the flow switch to change position. That's the trapped air expanding. Ever opened one and the flow switch moves immediately that's no air. For this purpose ignore the delay watch the lever/paddle position. A generalization gridded systems don't have air in them is also false. It's exactly related to the location of the ITV. If the ITV is at the end of the system on a grid air might be removed while filling or testing. If the ITV is at the riser (and there is no air relief remote) there is a similar amount of air in the system as a tree. OK all things being equal a gridded system has less volume compared to a tree system because of pipe size. But the volume of the system is similar in magnitude. I'm with Mark riser ITV with air relief remote and pressure relief someplace as the best of practice for all systems but I'll add not the minimally acceptable practice. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
