Thank you Ken , couldn't agree more. ---- Chuck Hollands <[email protected]> wrote: > Amen and thank gosh for people like Ken Wagoner! > > Kind Regards, > Chuck Hollands > Millennium Fire protection Corporation > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > ParsleyConsulting > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 8:36 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: 13R sprinklers > > Chris, > > I'll can tell you exactly where the SOB-PE is wrong. Consider a 16' x > 16' room. How many residential sprinklers? > > In the world of the listing criteria from Tyco, or any other > manufacturer, this room requires a single sprinkler, absent anything > that would prevent it not exceeding 10' from a wall. > > In the world of the PE who Todd is dealing with, the answer is no, you > must install four sprinklers, because your coverage cannot exceed 12' x > 12', or 6'-0" from any wall. He has quadrupled the number of sprinklers > in the room, and I might add, quadrupled the cost of the sprinkler > system to the customer. And this will hold true in every room in the > building which is greater than 12'x12' in size. > > Here's another part of that consideration. The same aforementioned > 16'x16' room, would require the hydraulic calculations to prove that > 13.0 gpm would be delivered to the single sprinkler in the room, if the > listing criteria and NFPA-13D were followed. In the world of the PE, > that changes again, and now Todd has to prove that 26 gpm can be > provided in the same room, all because the engineer doesn't accept the > testing and listing data from the manufacturer, and has chosen to ignore > the black and white text of the applicable standard. > > Now throw in the possible addition of 5 gpm for a domestic flow, which > many AHJ's are requiring, and now you're potentially flowing more than > 31 gpm through the meter. Depending on the manufacturer this might rule > out the use of a 3/4" meter and force the homeowner into purchasing an > upgraded meter, at a cost of thousands of dollars. Steve Leyton can > give you more information on that than I can, but in one water district > here in San Diego county the difference in a 3/4" vs. a 1" water meter > is $14,000. > > Four times the sprinklers the listing would require, larger pipe than is > necessary, an upgraded meter, and potentially a pump. What if the > system were supplied from onsite storage? Now the tank must be twice > the size as well. > > Doesn't add up to a "better" approach to residential fire protection > from where I sit. > > He's spending four times the owners money necessary [not his own, mind > you] to provide the same level of fire protection. Not "better", the > same. At four times the cost. > > From perspective of this quite humble sprinkler layout technician > that's just wrong. > -- > PARSLEY CONSULTING > Ken Wagoner, SET > 760.745.6181 voice > 760.745.0537 fax > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> e-mail > www.ParsleyConsulting.com <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com> website > > > > > > Chris Cahill wrote: > > This is important - LET ME PLAY DEVIL'S ADVOCATE, where is the engineer > > WRONG? Quick look at Tyco LF II 4.9 pendant 12' x 12' is 13 gpm. And at > 18 > > gpm it's a 13.49 psi start. The sidewalls at 4.2 will do 13gpm at 9.2 psi > > so you are not forced under a 7 psi start. So he won't let you use 16' x > 20' > > spacing? Just because one won't allow what in essence is extended > coverage > > doesn't make one ignorant. > > > > Is this not the equivalent of not allowing sched 7 and only allowing sched > > 40 threaded noting sched 7 has many more times the CRR? Both cases are > text > > book verse a real application. Perhaps some think 12' x 12' spacing is > > better then EC and 40 is better than 7 when applied to a real project. > How > > often do we see a spec say no EC? How often do we see no reduction for QR? > > > > I acknowledge you did say he is reading out of the where not been listed > > with special...so his argument may be flawed but his conclusion probably > > isn't from his perspective. I'm sure you recall the 13/18 was the > original > > NFPA 13R/D spec and the first heads had no other spacing options. But it > > also looks like at least in Tyco's case the low end it's the same on the > > 13gpm side. Yeah the dual gpm is gone. But an engineer can spec any > > density greater than the minimum. > > > > I didn't talk with the engineer perhaps he/she/it is ignorant or perhaps > > just exercising engineering prerogative like all the other times we see > it. > > > > > > Again that was the other side of the coin. I'M ON YOUR SIDE TODD. I > > wouldn't cost the owner extra money in what will probably be a lot of > extra > > heads but I don't see anything WRONG here. > > > > Chris Cahill, P.E. > > Fire Protection Engineer > > Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. > > > > 763-658-4483 > > 763-658-4921 fax > > > > Email: [email protected] > > > > Mail: P.O. Box 69 > > Waverly, MN 55390 > > > > Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW > > Waverly, MN 55390 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 8:39 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: 13R sprinklers > > > > Todd , > > Are you saying the engineer has seen and has read these sections of 13R > and > > still doesn't understand the requirements ? If so , you may have to go > over > > his head to a higher authority or say a prayer and try to appease him as > > best you can. > > > > Good Luck , > > > > Lamar Vaughn , SET > > > > > > ---- Todd Williams <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Discharge - 6.7.1.1.1, Coverage - 6.7.1.3.1. NFPA 13R (2002) > >> > >> > >> > >> At 08:23 AM 5/19/2010, you wrote: > >> > >>> I'd ask him to please, for your edification, cite the sections of > >>> the NFPA Standard where he derived his specification data. > >>> > >>> I guess he was looking at sprinkler data sheets and when it didn't > >>> say that the sprinkler is designed for 0.10 or whatever gpm/sq. ft > >>> he thinks it falls into that category? > >>> > >>> > >>> Craig L. Prahl, CET > >>> Fire Protection Specialist > >>> Mechanical Department > >>> CH2MHILL > >>> Lockwood Greene > >>> 1500 International Drive > >>> Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > >>> Direct - 864.599.4102 > >>> Fax - 864.599.8439 > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://www.ch2m.com > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: [email protected] > >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd > >>> > > Williams > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 6:11 AM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: 13R sprinklers > >>> > >>> I am working on a project with a rather ignorant engineer who will > >>> not accept listed flow requirements for residential sprinklers. He is > >>> insisting on using the 12 x 12 spacing, 13 gpm for multiple sprinkler > >>> flow and 18 for single sprinkler flow (we have to calculate both). My > >>> question may be one of semantics, but this is what the engineer is > >>> hanging everything on. Both the above spacing and discharge > >>> requirements are under sections entitled "Sprinklers That Have Not > >>> Been Listed with Specific (Discharge/Coverage) Criteria". Since > >>> virtually all of the residential sprinklers I am aware of have > >>> specific design and coverage criteria, am I to assume based on the > >>> wording that sprinklers with specific criteria cannot be used under > >>> this section? If so, are there any sprinklers without specific > >>> criteria currently on the market? > >>> > >>> Todd G. Williams, PE > >>> Fire Protection Design/Consulting > >>> Stonington, CT > >>> 860.535.2080 > >>> www.fpdc.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >>> > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >>> > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >>> > >> Todd G. Williams, PE > >> Fire Protection Design/Consulting > >> Stonington, CT > >> 860.535.2080 > >> www.fpdc.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >> > >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
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