No ESFR, not automatically the proper application. There are other large orifice sprinklers but for some reason when people think large flows they automatically assume ESFR is the fit-all remedy.
Per our codes if there are flammables there must be containment. Some combustibles per code do not require containment specifically but they do end up requiring spill control. In a lot of cases spill control ends up being containment just due the logistics of the operation. Also note that when dealing with chemicals, you need to know the composition of the chemical whether it's a polar solvent or hydrocarbon. Miscible and non-miscible chemicals cannot be controlled or extinguished in the same manner. Where water may work for one, it may do nothing for another. You need to seek out MSDS information on the chemicals being stored. This often gives you guidance as far as what type of fire control/suppression method is appropriate for the chemical. You also need to get the list so you can determine if there are different types of chemicals which may need to be grouped together or physically separated due to their characteristics. Hopefully an engineer or other person knowledgeable in chemical hazards has done this or would do this. Protection of chemical storage is not straight forward. Selection of suppression methodology can vary widely and there is little in the way of direction at times. NFPA 30 is the best guide but it does not always cover every possible situation you will see. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of sam b Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:24 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Flammable Liquid storage in open sheds Hii I am facing exactly the same pblm.. We are using NFPA 30 only. but no clear cut answers Even I am not sure whether there is a need for any type of protection.But unfortunatley no AHJ requirments here. As its an open area, I presume we cant use foam sprinkler system as no containment option is there. For sprinkler system Going by the higher side < I can settle down for ESFR Am I right? On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 11:22 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > You're dealing with many different issues but overall, an open shed if > often not required to even have sprinklers. I know we like to put > sprinklers on everything but there are just times when there is no Code > direction to do so regardless of what we think should be done. So if > there's no Code, AHJ or Underwriter requirement to do so then you've got no > way to justify it and the owner isn't going to just volunteer funds to > protect something that's not required to be protected. End of story, go to > the lake and drown some worms, your work is over. > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Specialist > Mechanical Department > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > [email protected] > http://www.ch2m.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd Williams > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 3:13 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Flammable Liquid storage in open sheds > > OK. The last shed structure I dealt with was next to the water where > wind could be an issue. However, a shed without walls, I would think, > have very different burn characteristics than an enclosed space. The > structure is more like a giant ceiling cloud that a room. Are you > going to get a significant flow of fresh air at floor (or fire) level > to replace the hot air escaping all sides around the roof? If this > going to increase the intensity of the burn? Haven't done any > research, but those are just questions. > > > > At 02:56 PM 7/12/2010, you wrote: > >Todd, if a drum goes up, there'd have to be a heckuva wind to not have the > >sprinklers activate- even by radiant heat. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: [email protected] > >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd > Williams > >Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 2:45 PM > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: RE: Flammable Liquid storage in open sheds > > > >And since the building has no walls, how is wind going to factor in? > > > > > > > >At 02:30 PM 7/12/2010, you wrote: > > >And then there's that ever elusive, non-conforming to anything, type of > > >storage container that so often pops up. Chemical storage is one of > > >the most aggravating things I have to deal with. Everyone expects > > >cookie-cutter answers. Yeah, I wish. Then there's the chase your tail > > >in a circle Code search for containment that can confuse the daylights > > >out of people. > > > > > >Craig L. Prahl, CET > > >Fire Protection Specialist > > >Mechanical Department > > >CH2MHILL > > >Lockwood Greene > > >1500 International Drive > > >Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > > >Direct - 864.599.4102 > > >Fax - 864.599.8439 > > >[email protected] > > >http://www.ch2m.com > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: [email protected] > > >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George > > >Church > > >Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 2:30 PM > > >To: [email protected] > > >Subject: RE: Flammable Liquid storage in open sheds > > > > > >and just when you think you've tracked down all the questions, you open > > >up NFPA 30 and then the phone, "relieving or non-relieving?" > > > > > >NFPA 30 has been given to us to add back the fun we used to have with > > >231C, which many of us don't get to experience as much with the > > >popularity of ESFRs. > > >I loved asking aisle widths for a spec whse, knowing the answer. > > > > > >glc > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: [email protected] > > >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > >[email protected] > > >Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 2:09 PM > > >To: [email protected] > > >Subject: RE: Flammable Liquid storage in open sheds > > > > > >There are a lot of variables that need to be known before answering a > > >question like that. > > > > > >Depending on what building or fire code applies the answers can vary, > > >also the location of the shed with respect to exposure of other > > >buildings or public ways can factor in and in a lot of cases with a > > >Class III combustible, there may not be any need whatsoever for any > > >kind of fixed fire protection. There needs to be some code research > > >performed and you need to know what the material is. You can spray all > > >the water you want on certain types of combustible liquids and > > >accomplish nothing, you may need foam or foam-water. > > > > > >Too many unknowns here. > > > > > >Craig L. Prahl, CET > > >Fire Protection Specialist > > >Mechanical Department > > >CH2MHILL > > >Lockwood Greene > > >1500 International Drive > > >Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > > >Direct - 864.599.4102 > > >Fax - 864.599.8439 > > >[email protected] > > >http://www.ch2m.com > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: [email protected] > > >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of sam b > > >Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 1:56 PM > > >To: [email protected] > > >Subject: Flammable Liquid storage in open sheds > > > > > >Hii.. > > > > > >Need some help > > > > > >Storage:in drums > > >Flammaeble liquid: Class III > > >Rack storage up to max 5 m. > > >Open shed storage with no walls (max height of shed is 7 m at eave) . > > > > > > > > >Can i know what sort of protection I need to provide(Sprinkler > > >system?). I checked NFPA 30 .but couldnt find the exact thing. > > > > > >I think chapter 15,NFPA2008 edition suits the scenario. But what sort > > >of protection and design density to consider. > > > > > >Can anyone give me a quick answer.? > > > > > >Thaanks in advance > > > > > >Regards > > >Sam > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >[email protected] > > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > > >to:[email protected]<to%[email protected]> > > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >[email protected] > > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > > >to:[email protected]<to%[email protected]> > > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >[email protected] > > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > > >to:[email protected]<to%[email protected]> > > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >[email protected] > > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > > >to:[email protected]<to%[email protected]> > > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > >Todd G. Williams, PE > >Fire Protection Design/Consulting > >Stonington, CT > >860.535.2080 > >www.fpdc.com > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > >to:[email protected]<to%[email protected]> > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > >to:[email protected]<to%[email protected]> > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, CT > 860.535.2080 > www.fpdc.com > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected]<to%[email protected]> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected]<to%[email protected]> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
