Wouldn't you start it on pressure drop? I apologize but I'm fried and not looking in code for this.
I can tell you it is permissible to start a pump from a detection system since we install systems where that's SOP. On a deluge valve you can have a remote start off the pressure switch, so I don't know why you couldn't start it from a WFS (or dry system PS). I can only imagine the pressure drop method is more reliable? Anyone on #20 or FGOL Tom? George Church' Rowe Sprinkler [email protected] 570-837-7647 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 8:55 AM To: '[email protected]' Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump Is it acceptable to trigger a fire pump from a flow switch if there is not jockey pump? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS & MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Frans Stoop Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 7:51 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump Craig, you are right. If your system doesn't leak at all you don't need a jockeypump. Unfortunately all sprinkler systems in the real world do leak. Most of the times so little that the moist evaporates before it drips. I know of systems where the jockeypump starts only once a month. In an almost identical system the jp starts twice a day. If you have some air buffer in a practically perfect network, the weekly test run of the fire pump may prevent the jp from starting ever. You may consider to omit the jockeypump in such a system. You may also change your mind when you are called in the middle of the night during Christmas holidays because the fire pump starts automatically and nobody knows why. (They skipped the weekly testrun because of the holidays.) Ergo: The only wet sprinkler system that doesn't need a jockeypump or other means for pressure maintenance is a theoretical system. BTW, A JP is also USUALLY not required when the pressure is maintained by an elevated fire water reservoir. Met vriendelijke groet / Yours sincerely, Frans Stoop TOS architecture & fire protection Netherlands <[email protected]> Tel. +31-24-324 0112 At 15:22 6-12-2010 -0700, you wrote: >"NFPA 20 2007, A.5.14.4 (1) A jockey pump is USUALLY required with >automatically controlled pumps." > >So based on that statement what would be an example where a JP would >USUALLY not be required? > >"A.5.24 Pressure maintenance (jockey or make-up) pumps should be used >where it is desirable to maintain a uniform or relatively high pressure >on the fire protection system. A jockey pump should be sized to make up >the allowable leakage rate within 10 minutes or 1 gpm (3.8 L/min), >whichever is larger." > >But I should have no leakage, So.......? > >"5.24.1 Pressure maintenance pumps shall have rated capacities not less >than any normal leakage rate." > >My leakage rate should be zero? > > >Craig L. Prahl, CET >Fire Protection >CH2MHILL >Lockwood Greene >1500 International Drive >Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >Direct - 864.599.4102 >Fax - 864.599.8439 >CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >[email protected] > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jack >Carlson >Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 5:08 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump > >I seem to recall being told that a JP was required to keep the main >pump from cycling on and off due to minor pressure fluctuations. > >Jack W. Carlson, SET >Triple "A" Fire Protection, Inc. >Cell - 706.247.5050 > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >[email protected] >Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 4:52 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump > >The question is what is the purpose of a JP in this application? > >Craig L. Prahl, CET >Fire Protection >CH2MHILL >Lockwood Greene >1500 International Drive >Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >Direct - 864.599.4102 >Fax - 864.599.8439 >CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >[email protected] > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron >Greenman >Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 4:50 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: High Rise Office Jockey pump > >So is the question this: > >The building needs a fire pump to meet hose emends at the roof. > >or: > >To meet hose demand at the roof the municipal pump kicks in. > >On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 1:42 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > It's supplied off a pump supplemented private fire main. > > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > > Fire Protection > > CH2MHILL > > Lockwood Greene > > 1500 International Drive > > Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > > Direct - 864.599.4102 > > Fax - 864.599.8439 > > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > > [email protected] > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Ronl.Fletcher > > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 4:39 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump > > > > The artificially high pressure created by the jockey pump is > usually necessary to prevent the main pump from starting because of > fluctuations in the city pressure. If you have a very flat city curve > it may be difficult to get a enough of a pressure drop from opening a > hose valve to start the main pump. > > > > Ron Fletcher > > Aero Automatic > > Phoenix, AZ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 1:56 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump > > > > 132 psi static, 120 psi residual, is that low pressure? > > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > > Fire Protection > > CH2MHILL > > Lockwood Greene > > 1500 International Drive > > Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > > Direct - 864.599.4102 > > Fax - 864.599.8439 > > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > > [email protected] > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 3:47 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: High Rise Office Jockey pump > > > > That is the main reason for a jockey (pressure maintenance) pump. > > If the fire pump were to start into a low pressure line, the > > differential could cause physical damage to the piping and supports. > > > > Thank You > > > > Rahe Loftin, P.E. > > Region 7 - GSA > > Cell - 817-371-3102 > > > > > > Todd Williams > > <[email protected]> To > > Sent by: [email protected] > > sprinklerforum-bo cc > > un...@firesprinkl > > er.org Subject > > Re: High Rise Office Jockey > > pump > > > > 12/06/2010 02:17 > > PM > > > > Please respond to > > sprinklerfo...@fi > > resprinkler.org > > > > > > For one, so that there is no or little surge in pressure when the > > fire pump kicks in > > > > > > At 03:06 PM 12/6/2010, you wrote: > >>I'm not used to buildings where there's nothing in it that will > >>leave a huge smoking crater so got a question. > >> > >>8 story office building, need to meet the 100 psi requirement for > >>the top remote hose connection, engineer has spec'd an electric fire > >>pump and jockey pump set. > >> > >>There is sufficient pressure and flow at the BOR for sprinkler > >>system operation but not hose. > >> > >>Is there really a need for a jockey pump on this type of install? > >>Since JP's are typically for maintaining pressure on underground > >>systems where leakage is typical what's the purpose in a system like > >>this? > >> > >>Any NFPA verbiage which permits their omission? So far I haven't > >>found anything specific. > >> > >>Craig L. Prahl, CET > >>Fire Protection > >>CH2MHILL > >>Lockwood Greene > >>1500 International Drive > >>Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > >>Direct - 864.599.4102 > >>Fax - 864.599.8439 > >>CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > >>[email protected] > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > > > > Todd G. Williams, PE > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > Stonington, CT > > 860.535.2080 > > www.fpdc.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > >-- >Ron Greenman >Instructor >Fire Protection Engineering Technology >Bates Technical College >1101 So. Yakima Ave. >Tacoma, WA 98405 > >[email protected] > >http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > >253.680.7346 >253.576.9700 (cell) > >Member: >AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > >They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
