That was me; send all kudos to my office address please. Collections lagging badly.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> Sender: [email protected] Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 19:39:50 To: <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Sprinkler under first accessible landing Craig, I thought it was you making fun of the architect by pointing out his misinterpretation was as silly as defining accessibility in this case as being the ADA one. I know someone mentioned it. I apologize for the attribution but it was praise for the satirical observation. So whoever it was: Kudos. On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 6:52 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > I didn't mention anything related to ADA and it's referencve to > "accessibility". A stair landing has nothing to do with ADA, that would be > totally stupid. > > Hans, sorry but if the PE read the handbook which gives an explanation he > would have understood the reason for the head under the FIRST landing, not > just ANY landing that you can access. The two common places where storage > occurs are under the FIRST landing on ground level and on the extra width > that isn't used at the TOP of the stairs. Some of this stuff is just too > simple but some who live to revel in the excellance of their superior > education like to make it more difficult. So my Star detraction still > stands. Sorry, just can't excuse blantant ignorance. > > > Craig Prahl > CH2MHILL/SPB > 864-599-4102 >________________________________________ > From: [email protected] > [[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman > [[email protected]] > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 12:28 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Sprinkler under first accessible landing > > Problem is that the term is not defined per 13 and so do you use > Webster, IBC or ADA? Although a non-building person would probably > default to a Websteristic definition and just ask, "Can you get into > and use the space for something?" but a building guy will more likely > fall into accessible/non-accessible concealed space (which isn't even > in 13 in those words), or accessible through an access panel, or, per > Craig's comment/joke, do you use ADA and build a ramp to above the > ATC. Considering some of the costly insanity associated with ADA > interpretation there may be more truth to what Craig said than he was > thinking when he said it. Take Texas with horn/strobes in closets in > case a deaf person is in the closet. What if it's a blind and deaf > person? Or in my own case. My classrooms are in the semi basement > (side of hill, full-flight of stairs to floor above for one egress and > half-flight up on the downslope side. There's also a non-compliant > ramp that's too steep for ADA. I also have two sinks with soap and > towel dispensers. One day maintenance shows up and announces that per > ADA they have to lower all the dispensers to some ADA height standard > for wheelchair accessibility. Now the sinks stay the same but the > towels and soap dispensers are essentially on the floor. Although I > could potentially have a wheelchair bound student I never have (or > maybe I have but he died on the ramp on his first day when he lost > control of his chair), but I have had numerous re-trains that have > hurt their backs and have trouble or even pain bending over. These > devices WERE non-accessible to them. Were comes into the equation > since I have tools and I'm not afraid to use them. > > On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Frans Stoop <[email protected]> wrote: >> Craig, >> >> Don't be to greedy with the gold stars to that poor engineer or one day you >> might have to hand over one of your own. >> The engineer did not take any license, he only quoted the most recent >> edition of NFPA 13. >> The word "accessible" might not be in the 2007 edition, but it does show up >> in the 2010 edition: >> >> "8.15.3.2.1 In noncombustible stair shafts having noncombustible >> stairs with noncombustible or limited-combustible finishes, sprinklers shall >> be installed at the top of the shaft and under the first accessible landing >> above the bottom of the shaft." >> >> In fact the word "accessible" is the only difference in the wording of this >> paragraph between the two editions. >> >> Met vriendelijke groet / Yours sincerely, >> >> Frans Stoop >> TOS architecture & fire protection >> Netherlands <[email protected]> >> Tel. +31-24-324 0112 >> >> >> At 06:39 11-3-2011 -0700, you wrote: >>> >>> Under the lowest landing due to the possibility of that space being used >>> for storage. If the space is totally enclosed then there is no access for >>> storage and no head is required if the stair is non-combustible. The spec >>> is correct. <sigh> The Engineer has taken some license on his quote of the >>> 13 section. The word "accessible" is not in the script. So no gold star >>> for him. >>> >>> NFPA 13, 2007 - 8.15.3.2.1 "In noncombustible stair shafts having >>> noncombustible stairs with noncombustible or limited combustible finishes, >>> sprinklers shall be installed at the top of the shaft and under the first >>> landing above the bottom of the shaft." >>> >>> Craig L. Prahl, CET >>> Fire Protection >>> CH2MHILL >>> Lockwood Greene >>> 1500 International Drive >>> Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >>> Direct - 864.599.4102 >>> Fax - 864.599.8439 >>> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >>> [email protected] >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cory Power >>> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 7:19 AM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Sprinkler under first accessible landing >>> >>> I have an an engineer asking to provide a sprinkler under the first >>> landing of a non-combustible stairwell. The spec for the job states that >>> "Sprinkler shall be installed at top of shaft. Space below first landing >>> is considered concealed, non-accessible, non-combustible, and hence does >>> not require sprinkler protection." >>> >>> he engineer who is reviewing my plans sent me an email stating the >>> following: >>> >>> *8.15.3.2 Noncombustible Construction.* >>> >>> *8.15.3.2.1 *In noncombustible stair shafts having noncombustible stairs >>> with noncombustible or limited-combustible finishes, sprinklers shall be >>> installed at the top of the shaft and under the first >>> accessible*landing*above the bottom of the shaft. >>> >>> We always took this to mean the sprinklers are required under the first >>> landing? And by accessible we took this to mean access could be provided >>> by a access panel.." >>> >>> Is this the way I should be interpreting the code? Do I still have to >>> sprinkler under the landing and make sure there's an access hatch? or >>> should I be able to omit it like the spec indicates? >>> >>> I have been following this forum for a while now. This is the first >>> question I have posted. >>> >>> - Cory >> >>_______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >_______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
