Don't ever think that an acceptance by an AHJ or an Underwriter makes it proper or right. The engineer is the one who's head is on the chopping block and is responsible for proving that an alternative will work. The AHJ just accepts that information from the EOR but is not responsible for the system or concept operating as designed.
Obviously someone had an idea in this case that they thought would work. Maybe the system was modified during its life span and the dead-ends weren't part of the original concept design. Or maybe they were and someone just messed up. Someone apparently thought that running the mains aboveground would save money where the cost of running the pump and its maintenance was cheaper. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Damien Shannon Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:25 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Firewater Circulation Pump Hi Craig, Thank you for the reply. I also find this concept 'unorthodox' as it is something I have never heard of before. However, many times in the past I have thought something to not be acceptable only to find out that it is quite the norm somewhere. Wasn't sure if that was maybe the case here. The fact that it was mentioned in that book 'Fire Fighting Pumping Systems at Industrial Facilities' by Dennis P. Nolan made me think that thing was a procedure that was being provided somewhere and that there would be a Standard outside of NFPA 20 that provided requirements for installation of such. If there was another Standard that provided for such an installation the AHJ might have been able to accept it based on that Standard. They somehow got approval from their insurers first day as this is an operating facility. The fact that he has freeze up certainly indicates that it is not working but is possibly because of incorrect original installation (valving arrangement) or non functioning valve... If there was a way of installing this type of arrangement correctly for the loop, the dead ends could possibly be heat traced and lagged and would not have been nearly as involved/expensive as heat tracing and lagging the entire loop which is what seems to be their only other feasible option. Thanks again for the input. Damien. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 9:12 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Firewater Circulation Pump The only recirc I've ever heard of had to do with recirculating water at the fire water storage tank as a means to prevent freezing of water within the tank. (Ref. NFPA 22) I've had this proposed by an owner who wanted to do some unorthodox and questionable things but we turned it down as there was no reference to the process in any Standard. Obviously if they've had freeze-ups the method is unsatisfactory in providing protection of the pipe against freezing. The only way any recirc can work is for the system to be looped so if for no other reason, the presence of dead- end legs should have taken this option off the table. There is no mention of the practice in the NFPA Handbook nor NFPA 24. That being the case how would an AHJ accept this as a proven method to protect the system against freezing? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Damien Shannon Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 8:40 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Firewater Circulation Pump Dear Forum, Wondering if anyone can share knowledge/experience in regards to 'Firewater Circulation Pump' arrangements as a solution to freeze protection. Personally never heard of them before today but we have an enquiry in from a facility that has one that is in place several years. 10" externally looped main aboveground around a facility (approx 1500' worth). However it is not performing as it was intended as he has had freeze ups. There are some dead-end pipes feeding FHVs off this loop which I can't even see as being feasible with the concept. Below is a link that discusses the topic (page 60), though it doesn't have arrangement details/schematic or such. Can anyone provide info or refer a source that would provide details for the valving/arrangement. Any insight would be appreciated. Damien Shannon Provincial Sprinkler Company Ltd. Unit 4, Cork Airport Industrial Estate Kinsale Road, Cork, Ireland. Tel: (021) 4965058 Fax: (021) 4317425 http://books.google.ie/books?id=1o6-H-ajj5oC&pg=PA60&dq=fire+water+recircula tion+pumps&hl=en&ei=kc1sTfHELJSChQeQ2IWPDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&res num=1&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
