Yeah but the exception to the 150% requirement is under acceptance testing & maintenance. If you get out in the field after install and something ends up falling short then don't sweat it as long as you can provide the greater of either 100% or the system demand. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the intention is to design a new install ready to fail from the beginning and from what I can gather the original poster is in the design phase.
-Brian On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 2:47 PM, George Church <[email protected]> wrote: > You need to flow 150% IF you have it available. > Many don't realize this, and require it when it is not a #20 requirement. > > Just like an office building we looked at yesterday with a BCO. Doesn't > need standpipes, IF it did it would be manual wet, and there's a horrible > (plumber) installed fire pump to give it an automatic water supply. However, > the FDC is about useless, cause the bypass has only a closed OS&Y on it, no > check, so its closed or the pump would just pump in a loop. But with that > valve closed, the FDC supply has to rotate the impeller of the pump to get > to the FHVs. Naturally they had the sensing lines coming off a common point, > and while the sensing lines are to come off between the discharge check and > gate on either pump, the check is supposed to be on the pump side; these guy > installed the gate, then the check- then the sensing line T. > > The ignorant leading the incompetent leds to a non-compliant installation > that didn't even need to happen. Glad I don't own the building- it was $50 > to $100k waste of money. Nice stainless cabinets, tho. Top ones don't have > pressure gauges..... > > > George L. Church, Jr., CET > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > [email protected] > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of IPA > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 7:12 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Pump, Tank, 1000 ft suction line..... > > George, what did you mean by "Don't think you'd have a need to provide > positive suction head at 150%." Doesn't NFPA #20 5.14.3.2 require it to stay > above 0 (or -3 for tanks) while flowing 150%? > > > > > On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 10:43 AM, George Church <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > It may- its been 10 years+ since they let me run HydraCAD back there. > > Did you call NH and ask em? > > One of the strengths they offer is someone who understands the program > > answering your call. > > You could pretend the tank is a piece of UG and is the incoming > > supply- set your flow test up to be 10,000 GPM at .5 PSI or 0 PSI Run > > it thru the UG including the slop you need to get positive head > > exceeding the friction loss in the supply piping Ignore the warning of > > low suction- Check result for positive pressure to the fire pump at > > system demand. Don't think you'd have a need to provide positive > > suction head at 150%. > > > > > > George L. Church, Jr., CET > > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Ralphy > > Henderson > > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 1:00 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Pump, Tank, 1000 ft suction line..... > > > > No, I don't need a PC to do the calc but I'd like for hydra calc to > > show all this w/o an additional set. Things like that tend to confuse > > the AHJ's - especially hand written things. You would think a multi > > thousand dollar program would be able to take the calc from a tank to > > the pump and to the system in one report - but it looks like that's not > the case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 6/7/11, George Church <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > From: George Church <[email protected]> > > Subject: RE: Pump, Tank, 1000 ft suction line..... > > To: "[email protected]" > > <[email protected]> > > Date: Tuesday, June 7, 2011, 4:47 PM > > > > Why not take a piece of paper, write down the length of the run, > > multiply it by the FL/ft, and use a calculator to multiply the two and > > get the friction loss? > > Then correct for any dif in elevation by multiplying the dif x .433. > > It really isn't that hard and you really don't need a pc to run a > > simple supply calc. > > > > Ok, maybe I should say you SHOULDn'T need a pc.... > > > > > > George L. Church, Jr., CET > > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Ralphy > > Henderson > > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 12:29 PM > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Pump, Tank, 1000 ft suction line..... > > > > Bob, > > > > That's kind of what I was getting at. I'll probably just have to > > submit a separate calc showing the 150% pump rating through the pump > > to the tank to prove the losses are acceptable. Does anyone know if > > there is a way to do this in a single calc in hydracalc? I can put in > > an additional water 'source' but then would have to enter in a static, > > res, and flow for the tank to get it to run through the program and > > these numbers are unknown (except for static). > > > > Thanks, > > > > RB > > > > > > --- On Mon, 6/6/11, Bob <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > From: Bob <[email protected]> > > Subject: RE: Pump, Tank, 1000 ft suction line..... > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Monday, June 6, 2011, 11:05 PM > > > > Ralph, > > Looking at this I'm coming up with 20.3 psi loss in 1000' of pipe not > > counting fittings and valves. > > (4.52*1000.00^1.85)/(140^1.85*6.4^4.85) = .0203 .0203 * 1000 = 20.3. > 6.4" > > is ID of 6" Tyton Joint Pipe DI. Fittings and valves will increase > > your losses. At 1500 gpm you will have .43 psi / ft loss. These > > numbers will vary depending on pipe type and ID. As far as how to do > > it; I think I would simply run the numbers through the calculation > > back to the tank. Or better yet, if there are hydrants fed off of the > > tank have a flow test performed and calc back to that point of > connection. > > > > Bob Knight, CET III > > 208-318-3057 > > www.firebyknight.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Vince > > Sabolik > > Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 4:37 PM > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > Subject: Re: Pump, Tank, 1000 ft suction line..... > > > > Ralph - > > > > My rough calcs say about 16 psi loss at 100% flow and 34 psi loss at > > 150% flow. > > Unless this is an elevated tank, or your source is uphill from the > > pump, this won't work. > > > > At 06:32 PM 6/6/2011, you wrote: > > >at 1000 gpm, you are going to lose about 2 psi per 100' of 6" > > >ductile iron pipe. At 1500 gpm, you are going to lose about 5 psi / > > >100' of DI pipe. You need to have enough elevation between the tank > > >and pump to provide a positive pressure at the suction flange. > > > > > >On 6/6/2011 3:28 PM, Ralphy Henderson wrote: > > >>Hi All, > > >> > > >>Can someone explain to me how one would go about calculating a fire > > >>pump being fed solely from a water storage tank but with a 6" x > > >>1,000 ft suction line? I've calculated fire pumps off of tanks that > > >>had a small 10 ft. suction lines directly off the tank but never one > > >>with this amount of underground line and I'm concerned about making > > >>sure friction losses in the suction are properly accounted for. The > > >>pump is 75 psi @ 1000 gpm. > > >> > > >>We use hydracalc, and typically when a fire pump and tank scenario > > >>comes up we have only one 'source', the pump, being specified. > > >>Would this change in this instance? I guess the main thing I'm > > >>concerned about is coming up with a negative pressure at the suction > > >>flange due to such a long run. > > >> > > >>Any help? > > >> > > >>-RB > > >> > > >>_______________________________________________ > > >>Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>[email protected] > > >>http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > >> > > >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > >>[email protected] > > >> > > >>To Unsubscribe, send an email > > >>to:[email protected] > > >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >[email protected] > > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > > >to:[email protected] > > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > > >signature database 6185 (20110606) __________ > > > > > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > > >http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > > > > Vince Sabolik > > Christi Fire Protection, Inc. > > 11351 Pearl Road > > Strongsville, Ohio 44136 > > > > T 440 572-7730 F 440 572-7719 Email: > > <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
