Hmm, I'm not sure why meeting the system demand is a failure. So I have a site with a proposed building. City can meet demand, but not the 150%. You'd install a tank and pump while I bid pump. Good luck with that conservatism in the real world.
Had a Come to Pelosi mtg yesterday with GC, Owner, and "giraffe" PE*. The PE allowed CPVC in nursing home BUT ONLY if owner gets a credit. So the PE has specified a system that meets code, but with steel pipe so the owner pays more than he should have to for it. That's is NOT being a good agent for the Owner. Again, ivory tower vrs contractor. Also, PE insists he has never heard an owner complain of overflowing a mop sink or 3" floor drain with a 2" main drain test. I asked if he'd ever personally witnessed a drain test like we were discussing. No, he hadn't. I told the owner I'd seen mop sinks overflow with ITC flow, 1/2" orifice, and we think a 2" main drain test isn't going to have water all over the floor? Again, people who have NO field experience advising an Owner what does and doesn't work. Ken pointed out that the PE wouldn't get the call from the owner. Their maintenance guy would call the GC who would call us and fix it. So now you know why I'm such a fan of design-build. The PE was fine with specifying 4" galv 40 threaded for the ATTIC sprinklers.... sure, that's a great installation with economy and long life, eh? Actually, this PE had specified the open wood truss attic to be protected by dry pendent sprinklers screwed into exposed piping in the attic. Hey, that is great fire protection. They cost more than ATTICs, they need to be tested every 10 years, and the deflector distance might be extended. How can you, when bidding, tell when the guy is wrong, or if he just wants somehtng really weird? The PE also routed the 4" supply thru an open breezeway, outside in PA. Duh...he didn't complain we fixed that routing. George L. Church, Jr., CET Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of IPA Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 6:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pump, Tank, 1000 ft suction line..... Yeah but the exception to the 150% requirement is under acceptance testing & maintenance. If you get out in the field after install and something ends up falling short then don't sweat it as long as you can provide the greater of either 100% or the system demand. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the intention is to design a new install ready to fail from the beginning and from what I can gather the original poster is in the design phase. -Brian On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 2:47 PM, George Church <[email protected]> wrote: > You need to flow 150% IF you have it available. > Many don't realize this, and require it when it is not a #20 requirement. > > Just like an office building we looked at yesterday with a BCO. > Doesn't need standpipes, IF it did it would be manual wet, and there's > a horrible > (plumber) installed fire pump to give it an automatic water supply. > However, the FDC is about useless, cause the bypass has only a closed > OS&Y on it, no check, so its closed or the pump would just pump in a > loop. But with that valve closed, the FDC supply has to rotate the > impeller of the pump to get to the FHVs. Naturally they had the > sensing lines coming off a common point, and while the sensing lines > are to come off between the discharge check and gate on either pump, > the check is supposed to be on the pump side; these guy installed the gate, > then the check- then the sensing line T. > > The ignorant leading the incompetent leds to a non-compliant > installation that didn't even need to happen. Glad I don't own the > building- it was $50 to $100k waste of money. Nice stainless cabinets, > tho. Top ones don't have pressure gauges..... > > > George L. Church, Jr., CET > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > [email protected] > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of IPA > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 7:12 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Pump, Tank, 1000 ft suction line..... > > George, what did you mean by "Don't think you'd have a need to provide > positive suction head at 150%." Doesn't NFPA #20 5.14.3.2 require it > to stay above 0 (or -3 for tanks) while flowing 150%? > > > > > On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 10:43 AM, George Church <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > It may- its been 10 years+ since they let me run HydraCAD back there. > > Did you call NH and ask em? > > One of the strengths they offer is someone who understands the > > program answering your call. > > You could pretend the tank is a piece of UG and is the incoming > > supply- set your flow test up to be 10,000 GPM at .5 PSI or 0 PSI > > Run it thru the UG including the slop you need to get positive head > > exceeding the friction loss in the supply piping Ignore the warning > > of low suction- Check result for positive pressure to the fire pump > > at system demand. Don't think you'd have a need to provide positive > > suction head at 150%. > > > > > > George L. Church, Jr., CET > > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Ralphy > > Henderson > > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 1:00 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Pump, Tank, 1000 ft suction line..... > > > > No, I don't need a PC to do the calc but I'd like for hydra calc to > > show all this w/o an additional set. Things like that tend to > > confuse the AHJ's - especially hand written things. You would think > > a multi thousand dollar program would be able to take the calc from > > a tank to the pump and to the system in one report - but it looks > > like that's not > the case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 6/7/11, George Church <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > From: George Church <[email protected]> > > Subject: RE: Pump, Tank, 1000 ft suction line..... > > To: "[email protected]" > > <[email protected]> > > Date: Tuesday, June 7, 2011, 4:47 PM > > > > Why not take a piece of paper, write down the length of the run, > > multiply it by the FL/ft, and use a calculator to multiply the two > > and get the friction loss? > > Then correct for any dif in elevation by multiplying the dif x .433. > > It really isn't that hard and you really don't need a pc to run a > > simple supply calc. > > > > Ok, maybe I should say you SHOULDn'T need a pc.... > > > > > > George L. Church, Jr., CET > > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Ralphy > > Henderson > > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 12:29 PM > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Pump, Tank, 1000 ft suction line..... > > > > Bob, > > > > That's kind of what I was getting at. I'll probably just have to > > submit a separate calc showing the 150% pump rating through the pump > > to the tank to prove the losses are acceptable. Does anyone know if > > there is a way to do this in a single calc in hydracalc? I can put > > in an additional water 'source' but then would have to enter in a > > static, res, and flow for the tank to get it to run through the > > program and these numbers are unknown (except for static). > > > > Thanks, > > > > RB > > > > > > --- On Mon, 6/6/11, Bob <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > From: Bob <[email protected]> > > Subject: RE: Pump, Tank, 1000 ft suction line..... > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Monday, June 6, 2011, 11:05 PM > > > > Ralph, > > Looking at this I'm coming up with 20.3 psi loss in 1000' of pipe > > not counting fittings and valves. > > (4.52*1000.00^1.85)/(140^1.85*6.4^4.85) = .0203 .0203 * 1000 = 20.3. > 6.4" > > is ID of 6" Tyton Joint Pipe DI. Fittings and valves will increase > > your losses. At 1500 gpm you will have .43 psi / ft loss. These > > numbers will vary depending on pipe type and ID. As far as how to do > > it; I think I would simply run the numbers through the calculation > > back to the tank. Or better yet, if there are hydrants fed off of > > the tank have a flow test performed and calc back to that point of > connection. > > > > Bob Knight, CET III > > 208-318-3057 > > www.firebyknight.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Vince > > Sabolik > > Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 4:37 PM > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > Subject: Re: Pump, Tank, 1000 ft suction line..... > > > > Ralph - > > > > My rough calcs say about 16 psi loss at 100% flow and 34 psi loss at > > 150% flow. > > Unless this is an elevated tank, or your source is uphill from the > > pump, this won't work. > > > > At 06:32 PM 6/6/2011, you wrote: > > >at 1000 gpm, you are going to lose about 2 psi per 100' of 6" > > >ductile iron pipe. At 1500 gpm, you are going to lose about 5 psi > > >/ 100' of DI pipe. You need to have enough elevation between the > > >tank and pump to provide a positive pressure at the suction flange. > > > > > >On 6/6/2011 3:28 PM, Ralphy Henderson wrote: > > >>Hi All, > > >> > > >>Can someone explain to me how one would go about calculating a > > >>fire pump being fed solely from a water storage tank but with a 6" > > >>x > > >>1,000 ft suction line? I've calculated fire pumps off of tanks > > >>that had a small 10 ft. suction lines directly off the tank but > > >>never one with this amount of underground line and I'm concerned > > >>about making sure friction losses in the suction are properly > > >>accounted for. The pump is 75 psi @ 1000 gpm. > > >> > > >>We use hydracalc, and typically when a fire pump and tank scenario > > >>comes up we have only one 'source', the pump, being specified. > > >>Would this change in this instance? I guess the main thing I'm > > >>concerned about is coming up with a negative pressure at the > > >>suction flange due to such a long run. > > >> > > >>Any help? > > >> > > >>-RB > > >> > > >>_______________________________________________ > > >>Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>[email protected] > > >>http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > >> > > >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > >>[email protected] > > >> > > >>To Unsubscribe, send an email > > >>to:[email protected] > > >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >[email protected] > > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > >[email protected] > > > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > > >to:[email protected] > > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > > >signature database 6185 (20110606) __________ > > > > > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > > >http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > > > > Vince Sabolik > > Christi Fire Protection, Inc. > > 11351 Pearl Road > > Strongsville, Ohio 44136 > > > > T 440 572-7730 F 440 572-7719 Email: > > <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
