I attempt to be a gentleman, but I admit your post tempted me in several
ways.
bv
-----Original message-----
From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, Mar 15, 2013 00:24:45 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: Phantom Flow
I'm beginning to see how age works and why old guys need to move on. I
completely got the code, starting in the seventies, up until the '99
changes. Then it started getting confusing. Nevertheless I kept up but
pretty soon there started being increasing complexity for no appreciable
gain, along with the good ideas. A time goes by the good ideas keep getting
to be fewer and the level of complexity seems to be approaching, or has
already reached, the point of diminishing returns. That's probably the time
for the old guard to step aside. Think I'll just limit myself to going to
conventions and getting people to buy me drinks.
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 5:14 PM, Ron Greenman <[email protected]> wrote:
Ah, Bruce has the real question. Does Ken have the answer but is playing
Johnny Tightlips?
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Bruce Verhei <[email protected]> wrote:
What problem is this section trying to solve?
Bv
-----Original message-----
From: "Cahill, Christopher" <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]"
<[email protected]>,
"[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, Mar 14, 2013 15:28:26 GMT+00:00
Subject: RE: Phantom Flow
I'd argue you are OK because you are not using density/area method.
Section always talks about area. You have no minimum area.
Chris Cahill, PE*
Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation & Facilities Group
Burns & McDonnell
8201 Norman Center Drive
Bloomington, MN 55437
Phone: 952.656.3652
Fax: 952.229.2923
[email protected]
www.burnsmcd.com
Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For
*Registered in: MN
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:
[email protected]] On Behalf Of
[email protected]
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 9:58 AM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: RE: Phantom Flow
Wow. We are doing a project with a canopy that I don't think needs to be
sprinkler but that isn't the point. The canopy is 3'-11" wide, sloped
greater than 2 in 12, requires a dry system and is 600' long. Section
11.2.3.4.2 requires 7 heads maximum. Would 23.4.4.1.1.4 apply and if so
how
would it be applied? The minimum design area would be 0.20 gpm over 2,535
sqft. The canopy is 2,400 sqft and only has one branch line with 48
sprinklers.
Ron F
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:
[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 6:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Phantom Flow
Chris, the way I read 23.4.4.1.1.4 is that it's optional. In your case,
I'd calc 2,000 sf of dry system plus 1,900 sf of wet. Since it's all
light
hazard, it shouldn't get ugly.
I gotta believe there will be some tweaking to that section, though. I
read the ROP and ROC - Tracey's 480 sf canopy (page 88 of the ROC) is
probably being protected by 4 sprinklers, but could require a 4" supply
pipe & dry valve since the phantom flow is added at the end of the dry
x-main. That doesn't seem reasonable to me.
Ed Kramer
Lawrence, KS
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:sprinklerforum-
> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Cahill, Christopher
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 4:46 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Phantom Flow
>
> Not what you think by the subject. Working out of NFPA 13 '13
> 23.4.4.1.1.5. This is new and confusing us greatly.
>
> I have a 20,000 sq.ft. heated LH building. And a 2,000 sq.ft. area
> that needs a dry system. Not an auxiliary dry system. My starting
> required design is 0.1/3,900. I calc the system at 2,000 sq.ft. (cuz
> that's all I have) and get for discussion sake 220 gpm. Then I
> subtract from 390
> (3,900 x 0.1 per 23.4.4.1.1.5) and I get 170 gpm. Then I go back to
> the calc and redo but this time I add 170 at the end of the main. Now
> this has the effect of overflowing all the rest of the BL's such my
> final calc is more than 390.
>
> !@#$^#
>
> What if I have a 500 sq.ft. building and the next building is 20 miles
> away @#$@# are we calc'ing this extra area for?
>
> Can someone 'splain if we got it right and then why in the world this
> got into the standard?
>
> Chris Cahill, PE*
> Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation & Facilities Group Burns &
> McDonnell
> 8201 Norman Center Drive
> Bloomington, MN 55437
> Phone: 952.656.3652
> Fax: 952.229.2923
> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> www.burnsmcd.com<http://www.burnsmcd.com/>
>
> Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For
> *Registered
> in: MN
>
>
>
>
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--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405
[email protected]
http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/
253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)
Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC
They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis
Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)
--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405
[email protected]
http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/
253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)
Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC
They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon,
essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)
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