Taking another clue from George: Here is Kevin reminding us all again about the value of AFSA membership. I encourage everyone on the Forum that is not a member to join. It's members like us that make this possible. Supporting OUR organization pays the bills so all of the things that AFSA does for us can happen. JOIN NOW!
On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Law, Kevin W <[email protected]> wrote: > This is a very interesting discussion. I wish I could take more time to > read all of the posts. So glad this forum exists as it helps me to broaden > my views and understanding the standards we are charged to implement. > > > > Kevin Law, PE > Fire Protection Engineering > WTP Project - Bechtel National > Ph. 509-371-8296 > Cell 509-531-0093 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On > > Behalf Of Steve Leyton > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:16 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Stages [*EXTERNAL*] > > > > Because a curtain drawn horizontally across the front of a > > platform that doesn't have the fly space over it doesn't > > represent the same hazard as a truly elevated "hanging > > curtain". With a platform condition, the ceiling is > > generally continuous from the seating area to the > > over-platform area. You have sprinklers on both sides of a > > drawn curtain without the various influences of a fly space > > such as obstructions, very high clearance to sprinklers, etc. > > > > Steve L > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On > > Behalf Of Cahill, Christopher > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:13 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Stages > > > > How is the curtain you reference in a school not a "overhead > > hanging curtains"? Just asking as it seems the plain > > language they are curtains that hang from above one's head > > level. That said I'm not sure the interpretation is that far > > out of whack. I always thought (because perhaps I made it up > > to justify in my own mind) the curtain issue was related to > > the audience cut off from the going's on behind the curtain > > and the potential for delay in recognizing a developing > > threat. Granted any other wall in the building does that. > > But most walls are of hard construction that don't add to the > > fire load and last a lot longer than a curtain. > > > > I agree a legit stage has higher hazards and in the > > definition is covered with drops, scenery or stage effects. > > And all platforms I have seen with a curtain are used more > > like a stage, at least occasionally, than those without a > > curtain with regards to fire hazards. But maybe I need to > > get out more. > > > > Chris Cahill, PE* > > Senior Fire Protection Engineer > > Burns & McDonnell > > 8201 Norman Center Drive > > Bloomington, MN 55437 > > Phone: 952.656.3652 > > Fax: 952.229.2923 > > [email protected] > > www.burnsmcd.com > > > > Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For > > *Registered in: MN > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On > > Behalf Of Steve Leyton > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 11:58 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Stages > > > > At 1600 sq. ft. a stage also requires a Class III standpipe, > > with an exception for fully sprinklered buildings that allows > > the installation of a small hose connection. > > > > We have wrestled with this here in CA because our state AHJ > > for schools has formally interpreted the IBC definition that > > speaks to "overhead hanging curtains" to include any curtain > > that hangs from its hardware, including the usual one at the > > stage front that closes horizontally. > > So in school assembly areas, multi-purpose buildings and gyms > > that have a platform by definition, it's a stage if there's a > > curtain that closes > > it off from the A-occupancy area. I fundamentally disagree with this > > interp, but that's how we play it out here in that jurisdiction. > > > > The intent of the proscenium separation and higher level of > > sprinkler protection (OH) in the fly space over a legitimate > > stage has to do with the aerial suspension of fire load. > > Cardboard, wood and fabric set pieces, tapestries, painted > > panels of all types and various other things that can be hung > > from the rigging are all, generally, HIGHLY flammable. > > Elevating the fire load enhances airflow and leads to falling/flying > > brands. We had a fire at the Civic Theater in San Diego a few years > > back and it operated four sprinklers over the fly space (75' > > AFF, I think). > > > > All this underscores that legitimate stages and platforms are > > actually very different animals, but also that AHJ's will do > > what they do ... > > > > Steve L > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On > > Behalf Of Craig Leadbetter > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 7:43 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Stages > > > > Well unfortunately the drawing does say stage and the area is approx. > > 1600 sqft. > > > > > > > > Craig Leadbetter > > > > Safeguard of Marquette > > PO Box 116 > > Marquette, MI 49855 > > > > > > (P) 906-475-9955 > > (F) 906-475-5474 > > (C) 906-362-5393 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On > > Behalf Of rongreenman . > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:35 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: Stages > > > > According to an AHJ I had to deal with once, it was a stage > > if the architect wrote stage and a platform if he wrote > > platform. This opened up so many possibilities. > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 6:59 AM, Cahill, Christopher > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > It's defined twice in IBC > > > > > > Inversely in the definition for PLATFORM. A raised area within a > > > building used for worship, the presentation of music, plays > > or other > > > entertainment; the head table for special guests; the > > raised area for > > > lecturers and speakers; boxing and wrestling rings; theater-in-the > > > round stages; and similar purposes wherein there are no overhead > > > hanging curtains, drops, scenery or stage effects other > > than lighting > > > and > > sound. > > > > > > And STAGE. A space within a building utilized for entertainment or > > > presentations, which includes overhead hanging curtains, drops, > > > scenery or stage effects other than lighting and sound. > > > > > > So do you have curtains, drops, scenery or other stage > > effects? Note > > > size does not matter, storage underneath does not matter > > when defining > > > > > whether you have a stage or not. > > > > > > Chris Cahill, PE* > > > Senior Fire Protection Engineer > > > Burns & McDonnell > > > 8201 Norman Center Drive > > > Bloomington, MN 55437 > > > Phone: 952.656.3652 > > > Fax: 952.229.2923 > > > [email protected] > > > www.burnsmcd.com > > > > > > Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For > > > *Registered in: MN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > [email protected] > > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 8:40 AM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: RE: Stages > > > > > > IFC 905.3.4 ('06 ed) kicks in the hose valve requirement at greater > > > than 1000 sqft. So I guess a "stage" can be under 1000 > > sqft. but the > > > hose valves wouldn't be required. > > > > > > Ron F > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf > > Of Richard > > > Lindner > > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 4:46 AM > > > To: sprinklerforum@lists firesprinkler. org > > > Subject: Re: Stages > > > > > > You need to use the appropriate building code to determine > > platform vs > > > > > stage for this area of the country. If stage, square footage and > > > ability to store under will also come into play. > > > > > > Richard > > > On Oct 10, 2013 7:06 AM, "Craig Leadbetter" > > > <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At what point does a stage become a stage rather than > > just a raised > > > > platform? > > > > > > > > I am working on a project that is an old school that is being > > > > converted to apartments, however a portion of the building will > > > > remain as an educational classification with a school > > "stage" in the > > > > > > gymnasium portion of the building. > > > > > > > > Should I be looking at this as a full blown "stage" and > > all of the > > > > hose stations and such or am I over thinking? I am trying to > > > > eliminate the need for a fire pump. > > > > > > > > No, I can't ask the engineer. we basically got an x through the > > > > drawings and says provide fire protection to meet code. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > Craig Leadbetter > > > > > > > > Safeguard of Marquette > > > > PO Box 116 > > > > Marquette, MI 49855 > > > > > > > > > > > > (P) 906-475-9955 > > > > (F) 906-475-5474 > > > > (C) 906-362-5393 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > > > kl > > > > er.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > > er.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > > er.org _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > > er.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ron Greenman > > Instructor > > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > > Bates Technical College > > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > > > 253.680.7346 > > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > > > Member: > > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. > > -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman > > (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-fir > esprinkler > > .org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-fir > esprinkler > > .org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-fir > esprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-fir > esprinkler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-fir > esprinkler.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
