As the Irish say, "Is this a private fight or can anyone join in?" That old saw aside I'm not joining. But I've seen the dry chems. I've tripped over the piping. I'm likely to conclude that the pipe is a greater tripping hazard than the likelihood of a fire. And the foam canopy systems I've seen are in fuel loading facilities (tank farm to tankers, rail or road), not fuel dispensing (gas stations). Do fuel loading facilities have the same safeguards as the fuel dispensing ones. I know they don't have the 7-11 store or a bunch of self service amateurs handling the hose lines. But I said I wouldn't join this fight as I just brought notions and opinions to a data fight.
On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 2:39 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > I'll clarify, that I have seen a gas station fire and it wasn't a small > fire. An OH I system would have been a joke. > > Fire protection systems for gas stations are not totally uncommon and some > jurisdictions require facilities to be protected under local code. Foam is > one avenue and dry chem is another. If there wasn't a market, the mfgrs > wouldn't be hawking their wares. > > The likelihood of a fire in a gas station is just like the likelihood of a > fire in any other occupancy. When the stars align just right it lights > up. Are they common, not really, do they happen, yes they do. > > So as in all things grey that don't reside within the finite pages of > black and white text, whatever you choose be sure you can defend it if you > have to. That is all. > > Craig L. Prahl > Fire Protection Group Lead/SME > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > Spartanburg, SC 29303 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > [email protected] > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 5:19 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps > > EXACTLY. None of us has ever seen a gas station fire in all likelihood > because the equipment is equipped with so many fail-safety devices and so > long as idiots aren't smoking or lighting incense as they refuel, it's very > low risk, empirically speaking. If there's a fire on the ground, how well > does a canopy trap heat? With no walls, the horizontal movement of > byproducts is going to be fairly high-velocity, no? Unless you have some > fire modeling or test data in hand, your and my guesses are the best we're > going to have with regard to the chances of sprinklers skipping or even > operating at all. The AHJ is probably requiring sprinklers for the reason > you state - so he/she can sleep at night, so give them sprinklers. > > As to the use of foam by responders, I think everyone would agree that > there's a significant difference in the metrics of programming operations > in a muni fire department than in the cost-benefit analysis of a fixed foam > extinguishing system and the impact it would have on the design of the > protected premises. Water has been successfully fire tested in flammable > liquids fires, from mist to ESFR. So if the AHJ wants sprinklers, give > them "sprinklers". > > SL > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 2:04 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps > > Wow, really? What is that stuff the guys in the red trucks spray on > liquid fuel spills and over car fires? > > Hate to disagree but OH I is even questionable for a parking garage > regardless of what NPFA says and for a gas station well it's just silly. > I've never seen a little gas station fire. > > But at the end of the day you do what allows you to sleep at night. > > Craig L. Prahl > Fire Protection Group Lead/SME > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > Spartanburg, SC 29303 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > [email protected] > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 4:51 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps > > Please, stop. This is NOT flammable liquids storage. Foam and wind > effect and all this other stuff is Henny-Penny-the-sky-is-falling > distraction (IMHO). 7.3.5.2 of 30A states, " Where required, an automatic > fire suppression system shall be installed in accordance with the > appropriate NFPA standard, manufacturer's instructions, and the listing > requirements of the systems. Obviously, NFPA 13 doesn't have a > prescriptive for fuel island canopies, so let's use some common sense. > The fuel is stored in UG tanks away from the islands and retail store or > cashiers hut. NFPA 30 doesn't apply as this isn't storage, but Chapter 18 > states that when a hose is used in the transfer of F/C liquids as part of > an "incidental operation", it shall be equipped with a self-closing valve. > That's what a automotive fuel hose does - it's a dead man that kicks off > from several triggers including back pressure and impact. So the movie > scene of a guy having a heart attack and squirting a steady stream of fuel > into the air as a crow drops a burning cigarette butt into the pool is ... > far-fetched. At most, we can reasonable expect that there could be a quart > of gasoline on the ground if there's an accident, so we would be protecting > for that and the cars at the island that are ostensibly full or nearly full > of fuel. Just like in an OH 1 parking garage. > > OH 2 if it's a month ending in Y ... my 3ยข. > > SL > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 10:25 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps > > This is outside the purview of NFPA 13. > > You're dealing with flammable and combustible liquids, hydrocarbons on > which water alone will have limited affect. > > For fuel loading/unloading stations it is common to employ foam-water > deluge for the area below the canopy. > > Also an option is dry chemical. Pyrochem has a system called ATTENDANT II > (distributed by Tyco) > > The HAJ would have to approve either one but more tend to lean towards a > sprinklered solution than a one-shot gaseous system. A very windy day > could totally render a gaseous extinguishing system useless. > > For design you do need to consider wind effect on your system discharge. > Don't get swayed into the minimum .16 gpm/sf permitted on foam-water > systems. You can have coverage issues again due to wind influences. > > NFPA 30, NFPA 30A, NFPA 16 and NFPA 2001 are good places to start. > > Good luck and have fun! > > Craig L. Prahl > Fire Protection Group Lead/SME > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > Spartanburg, SC 29303 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > [email protected] > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of James > Crawford > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 1:04 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Canopies Over gads Pumps > > Looking for some direction on the protection of a Gas Service station > canopy over the gas pumps. > > > > We have an AHJ that want the canopy protected, but I can't find anything > that outlines the protection requirements for this area. My first thought > is Extra Hazard group 1. > > > > Can someone point me in the right direction > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > James Crawford > > Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. > > Phone 604-888-0318 > > Fax 604-888-4732 > > Cel 604-790-0938 > > Email [email protected] > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
