People will die. SL
-----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 4:43 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Canopies Over gas Pumps It seems as if anyone can join in on this one. So I have just one question. What if there is no canopy over the fuel pumps? Mark at Aero 602 820-7894 Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 8, 2015, at 3:52 PM, "rongreenman ." <[email protected]> wrote: > > As the Irish say, "Is this a private fight or can anyone join in?" > That old saw aside I'm not joining. But I've seen the dry chems. I've > tripped over the piping. I'm likely to conclude that the pipe is a > greater tripping hazard than the likelihood of a fire. And the foam > canopy systems I've seen are in fuel loading facilities (tank farm to > tankers, rail or road), not fuel dispensing (gas stations). Do fuel > loading facilities have the same safeguards as the fuel dispensing > ones. I know they don't have the 7-11 store or a bunch of self service > amateurs handling the hose lines. But I said I wouldn't join this > fight as I just brought notions and opinions to a data fight. > >> On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 2:39 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I'll clarify, that I have seen a gas station fire and it wasn't a >> small fire. An OH I system would have been a joke. >> >> Fire protection systems for gas stations are not totally uncommon and >> some jurisdictions require facilities to be protected under local >> code. Foam is one avenue and dry chem is another. If there wasn't a >> market, the mfgrs wouldn't be hawking their wares. >> >> The likelihood of a fire in a gas station is just like the likelihood >> of a fire in any other occupancy. When the stars align just right it >> lights up. Are they common, not really, do they happen, yes they do. >> >> So as in all things grey that don't reside within the finite pages of >> black and white text, whatever you choose be sure you can defend it if you >> have to. That is all. >> >> Craig L. Prahl >> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME >> CH2MHILL >> Lockwood Greene >> 1500 International Drive >> Spartanburg, SC 29303 >> Direct - 864.599.4102 >> Fax - 864.599.8439 >> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >> [email protected] >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve >> Leyton >> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 5:19 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps >> >> EXACTLY. None of us has ever seen a gas station fire in all likelihood >> because the equipment is equipped with so many fail-safety devices >> and so long as idiots aren't smoking or lighting incense as they >> refuel, it's very low risk, empirically speaking. If there's a fire >> on the ground, how well does a canopy trap heat? With no walls, the >> horizontal movement of byproducts is going to be fairly >> high-velocity, no? Unless you have some fire modeling or test data >> in hand, your and my guesses are the best we're going to have with >> regard to the chances of sprinklers skipping or even operating at >> all. The AHJ is probably requiring sprinklers for the reason you state - so >> he/she can sleep at night, so give them sprinklers. >> >> As to the use of foam by responders, I think everyone would agree >> that there's a significant difference in the metrics of programming >> operations in a muni fire department than in the cost-benefit >> analysis of a fixed foam extinguishing system and the impact it would >> have on the design of the protected premises. Water has been >> successfully fire tested in flammable liquids fires, from mist to >> ESFR. So if the AHJ wants sprinklers, give them "sprinklers". >> >> SL >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of >> [email protected] >> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 2:04 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps >> >> Wow, really? What is that stuff the guys in the red trucks spray on >> liquid fuel spills and over car fires? >> >> Hate to disagree but OH I is even questionable for a parking garage >> regardless of what NPFA says and for a gas station well it's just silly. >> I've never seen a little gas station fire. >> >> But at the end of the day you do what allows you to sleep at night. >> >> Craig L. Prahl >> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME >> CH2MHILL >> Lockwood Greene >> 1500 International Drive >> Spartanburg, SC 29303 >> Direct - 864.599.4102 >> Fax - 864.599.8439 >> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >> [email protected] >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve >> Leyton >> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 4:51 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps >> >> Please, stop. This is NOT flammable liquids storage. Foam and wind >> effect and all this other stuff is Henny-Penny-the-sky-is-falling >> distraction (IMHO). 7.3.5.2 of 30A states, " Where required, an >> automatic fire suppression system shall be installed in accordance >> with the appropriate NFPA standard, manufacturer's instructions, and the >> listing >> requirements of the systems. Obviously, NFPA 13 doesn't have a >> prescriptive for fuel island canopies, so let's use some common sense. >> The fuel is stored in UG tanks away from the islands and retail store or >> cashiers hut. NFPA 30 doesn't apply as this isn't storage, but Chapter 18 >> states that when a hose is used in the transfer of F/C liquids as >> part of an "incidental operation", it shall be equipped with a self-closing >> valve. >> That's what a automotive fuel hose does - it's a dead man that kicks >> off from several triggers including back pressure and impact. So the >> movie scene of a guy having a heart attack and squirting a steady >> stream of fuel into the air as a crow drops a burning cigarette butt into >> the pool is ... >> far-fetched. At most, we can reasonable expect that there could be a >> quart of gasoline on the ground if there's an accident, so we would >> be protecting for that and the cars at the island that are ostensibly >> full or nearly full of fuel. Just like in an OH 1 parking garage. >> >> OH 2 if it's a month ending in Y ... my 3ยข. >> >> SL >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of >> [email protected] >> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 10:25 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Canopies Over gas Pumps >> >> This is outside the purview of NFPA 13. >> >> You're dealing with flammable and combustible liquids, hydrocarbons >> on which water alone will have limited affect. >> >> For fuel loading/unloading stations it is common to employ foam-water >> deluge for the area below the canopy. >> >> Also an option is dry chemical. Pyrochem has a system called >> ATTENDANT II (distributed by Tyco) >> >> The HAJ would have to approve either one but more tend to lean >> towards a sprinklered solution than a one-shot gaseous system. A >> very windy day could totally render a gaseous extinguishing system useless. >> >> For design you do need to consider wind effect on your system discharge. >> Don't get swayed into the minimum .16 gpm/sf permitted on foam-water >> systems. You can have coverage issues again due to wind influences. >> >> NFPA 30, NFPA 30A, NFPA 16 and NFPA 2001 are good places to start. >> >> Good luck and have fun! >> >> Craig L. Prahl >> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME >> CH2MHILL >> Lockwood Greene >> 1500 International Drive >> Spartanburg, SC 29303 >> Direct - 864.599.4102 >> Fax - 864.599.8439 >> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >> [email protected] >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of James >> Crawford >> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 1:04 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Canopies Over gads Pumps >> >> Looking for some direction on the protection of a Gas Service station >> canopy over the gas pumps. >> >> >> >> We have an AHJ that want the canopy protected, but I can't find >> anything that outlines the protection requirements for this area. My >> first thought is Extra Hazard group 1. >> >> >> >> Can someone point me in the right direction >> >> >> >> >> >> Thank you >> >> >> >> >> >> James Crawford >> >> Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. >> >> Phone 604-888-0318 >> >> Fax 604-888-4732 >> >> Cel 604-790-0938 >> >> Email [email protected] >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> ler.org _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> ler.org _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> ler.org _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> ler.org _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> ler.org _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> ler.org > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, > inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
