I hate spellchecker too Ron On Aug 9, 2016 8:51 PM, "rongreenman ." <[email protected]> wrote:
> Sidewalks are not listed for EH. Pendants are. Using pendants is > considered both standard and best practice in this special application > where sidewalks are not. > > On Tuesday, August 9, 2016, IPA <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I just found it amusing that sidewall sprinklers in a duct were >> pooh-poohed for not being in conformance with the standard by people who >> advocated using pendants in a horizontal position which apparently is not >> in conformance with '13 either. :-P >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 2:27 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> You’re welcomed to install how you see fit but spraying inside a duct is >>> a lot different than out in a room or on a dock. >>> >>> >>> >>> It’s a comparison of apples to elephants. >>> >>> >>> >>> You have no issues or concersn about whether or not the water spray can >>> reach the other side of the duct or whether or not heat will collect and >>> set it off in such a confined space. So if you install it at 3 o’clock, 9 >>> o’clock or 12 o’clock it really doesn’t matter as far as discharge is >>> concerned. >>> >>> >>> >>> Rooms and space rules have no application inside a piece of ductwork. >>> >>> >>> *Craig L. Prahl* >>> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME >>> *CH2M* >>> 200 Verdae Blvd. >>> Greenville, SC 29607 >>> Direct - 864.920.7540 >>> >>> Fax - 864.920.7129 >>> >>> CH2MHILL Extension 77540 >>> [email protected] >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces >>> @lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *IPA >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 09, 2016 5:18 PM >>> >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Subject:* Re: Paint spray application [EXTERNAL] >>> >>> >>> >>> I don't find the lack of an orientation in 22.4.2 a compelling enough >>> reason to install it horizontally especially since 3.6.2.3 states that >>> pendant sprinklers are to spray water 'downward against the deflector.' The >>> old dry pendant at the dock scenario at least has it at a 45 degree angle >>> but not horizontal. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 1:47 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Inside a duct no matter the orientation, the sprinkler sees the same >>> shape and the discharge will more than adequately cover the small space. >>> >>> >>> >>> Look at 22.4.2 in 2013 edition of 13. >>> >>> >>> >>> Orientation is not specified. Now you might pick a location based on >>> drainage or other factors. But there is no specific NFPA constraint. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Craig L. Prahl* >>> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME >>> *CH2M* >>> 200 Verdae Blvd. >>> Greenville, SC 29607 >>> Direct - 864.920.7540 >>> >>> Fax - 864.920.7129 >>> >>> CH2MHILL Extension 77540 >>> [email protected] >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces >>> @lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *IPA >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 09, 2016 2:28 PM >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Subject:* Re: Paint spray application [EXTERNAL] >>> >>> >>> >>> So, where is the code section that says pendant sprinklers can be >>> installed in any orientation in ducts? I've just scoured '13 and can't find >>> it. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Bob <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Brad, >>> >>> It’s all good. I tend to agree with the QR on small booths. Especially >>> since we are calc’ing for the worst case that all sprinklers will flow >>> anyway. Seems that opening faster would be a good idea, but then again I’m >>> not an engineer, just a guy who draws lots of lines and circles. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> >>> >>> Bob Knight, CET III >>> >>> 208-318-3057 >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces >>> @lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Brad Casterline >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 09, 2016 12:21 PM >>> *To:* [email protected]; [email protected] >>> >>> >>> *Subject:* RE: Paint spray application >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes indeed. >>> I knew as soon as I hit send it was a bad idea. >>> I have thought for several years there should be an exception for no QR >>> in EH, ever since I understood the reasoning. >>> I should have more soberly made my point that I think small paint booths >>> are an excellent application -- if you calc all heads flowing why not use >>> low temp QR? It would be the next best thing to open head deluge, would it >>> not? >>> And I apologize for the name calling and meaness of spirit, FWIW. There >>> is no excuse for that. A big part of how I feel about myself is based on >>> how i act on this Forum. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Brad >>> >>> On Aug 9, 2016 1:02 PM, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> I have an example of one that I did in Salt Lake recently. It has 144 >>> sprinklers in it. This counts all the exhaust ducts and stacks plus the >>> ceiling sprinklers. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> >>> >>> Bob Knight, CET III >>> >>> 208-318-3057 >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces >>> @lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *[email protected] >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 09, 2016 6:29 AM >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Subject:* RE: Paint spray application >>> >>> >>> >>> How many example of industrial spray booths with more than 40 heads >>> would you like Brad? They exist and are not all that rare. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Craig L. Prahl* >>> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME >>> *CH2M* >>> 200 Verdae Blvd. >>> Greenville, SC 29607 >>> Direct - 864.920.7540 >>> >>> Fax - 864.920.7129 >>> >>> CH2MHILL Extension 77540 >>> [email protected] >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces >>> @lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Brad Casterline >>> *Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2016 8:39 PM >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Subject:* RE: Paint spray application [EXTERNAL] >>> >>> >>> >>> Show me a spray booth with forty sprinklers Steve >>> >>> On Aug 8, 2016 7:36 PM, "Steve Leyton" <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Sure. And fires that can be spread by running fuel such as plastics and >>> FCL’s (not to mention BLEVE’s) can set off 40 standard response sprinklers >>> in a minute. I can only imagine the sheer volume of responding sprinklers >>> and skipping that could occur based on how smooth or bumpy the roof/ceiling >>> assembly is if you started wantonly plugging QR control-mode sprinklers >>> into EH fires. (On paper) MDD = .80 ADD = .275 >>> >>> >>> >>> My opinion only, >>> >>> Steve L. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces >>> @lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Brad Casterline >>> *Sent:* Monday, August 08, 2016 5:17 PM >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Subject:* Re: Paint spray application >>> >>> >>> >>> Shakey ground is all i have ever known Ken. >>> I am no more a professional than you are. >>> THINK MAN! >>> small spaces with fast fires need the fastest acting sprinklers we can >>> muster. >>> I've been in court myself a couple times- neither one over sprinklers >>> though-- >>> please stop being so stodgy! >>> >>> On Aug 8, 2016 7:05 PM, "Parsley Consulting" <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I don't know, Brad. You're standing on pretty shaky ground there. >>> >>> The decision to use QR sprinklers in an extra hazard occpuancy is a >>> direct contradiction to 8.4.1.1.2 of NFPA 13, including the 2016 edition, >>> or a similar section number, at least as far back as the 1999 edition. If >>> you install QR sprinklers in a space that is legitimately classed as an >>> extra hazard occupancy, aren't you directly contradicting this particular >>> section of NFPA 13? The handbook provides the following explanatory text >>> on the topic: >>> >>> Extra hazard occupancies are characterized by the probability of >>> fast-developing fires with high heat release rates that have the potential >>> to open a large number of quick-response sprinklers before the sprinklers >>> have time to control the fire. The operation of a large number of >>> sprinklers in a relatively short time period has the potential to overtax >>> the system. For this reason, quick-response sprinklers using the area >>> design method of Chapter 11 are not permitted for the protection of >>> extra hazard occupancies. Additional perspective on this can be found in >>> the discussion of safety margin found in B.2.1. >>> >>> Further, I'm not aware of any QR sprinkler which has been tested and >>> listed by an NRTL for use in protecting extra hazard occupancies. Barring >>> that, to follow the guidance you're suggesting the >>> contractor/designer/installer has to violate both NFPA 13 AND the listing >>> of the sprinkler. I'm not suggesting the gloom and doom drama of "people >>> could die", however it does concern me greatly when I read suggestions to >>> ignore both texts. >>> >>> My thought about that is to make sure your insurance is paid up, and >>> have a good lawyer on retainer. I don't know of a good defense while >>> sitting in the witness chair to a question similar to, "Are you telling me >>> you ignored the applicable law and the manufacturer's recommendations for >>> the installation of that sprinkler?" >>> >>> When I have nightmares I think about having to answer questions similar >>> to that. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Ken Wagoner, SET Parsley Consulting 350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206 >>> Escondido, California 92025 Phone 760-745-6181 <760-745-6181> Visit our >>> website <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/> * >>> >>> >>> On 08/08/2016 4:17 PM, Brad Casterline wrote: >>> >>> We're not suppose to use QR in EH either but I say balderdash. >>> That is for big open spaces beacase you could have a bunch of heads >>> going off way over there when the emergency is way over here. Small spaces >>> with fast fires are better off if you use low temp qr and calc every head >>> possible going off >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-f >>> iresprinkler.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-f >>> iresprinkler.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-f >>> iresprinkler.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-f >>> iresprinkler.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-f >>> iresprinkler.org >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-f >>> iresprinkler.org >>> >>> >> > > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > >
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