And auto spellchecker makes it even more fun! ;-) Mark at Aero 602 820-7894
Sent from my iPhone On Aug 9, 2016, at 6:51 PM, rongreenman . <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Sidewalks are not listed for EH. Pendants are. Using pendants is considered both standard and best practice in this special application where sidewalks are not. On Tuesday, August 9, 2016, IPA <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I just found it amusing that sidewall sprinklers in a duct were pooh-poohed for not being in conformance with the standard by people who advocated using pendants in a horizontal position which apparently is not in conformance with '13 either. :-P On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 2:27 PM, <[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: You’re welcomed to install how you see fit but spraying inside a duct is a lot different than out in a room or on a dock. It’s a comparison of apples to elephants. You have no issues or concersn about whether or not the water spray can reach the other side of the duct or whether or not heat will collect and set it off in such a confined space. So if you install it at 3 o’clock, 9 o’clock or 12 o’clock it really doesn’t matter as far as discharge is concerned. Rooms and space rules have no application inside a piece of ductwork. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2M 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 Direct - 864.920.7540<tel:864.920.7540> Fax - 864.920.7129<tel:864.920.7129> CH2MHILL Extension 77540 [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] On Behalf Of IPA Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2016 5:18 PM To: [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> Subject: Re: Paint spray application [EXTERNAL] I don't find the lack of an orientation in 22.4.2 a compelling enough reason to install it horizontally especially since 3.6.2.3 states that pendant sprinklers are to spray water 'downward against the deflector.' The old dry pendant at the dock scenario at least has it at a 45 degree angle but not horizontal. On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 1:47 PM, <[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: Inside a duct no matter the orientation, the sprinkler sees the same shape and the discharge will more than adequately cover the small space. Look at 22.4.2 in 2013 edition of 13. Orientation is not specified. Now you might pick a location based on drainage or other factors. But there is no specific NFPA constraint. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2M 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 Direct - 864.920.7540<tel:864.920.7540> Fax - 864.920.7129<tel:864.920.7129> CH2MHILL Extension 77540 [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] On Behalf Of IPA Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2016 2:28 PM To: [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> Subject: Re: Paint spray application [EXTERNAL] So, where is the code section that says pendant sprinklers can be installed in any orientation in ducts? I've just scoured '13 and can't find it. On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Bob <[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: Brad, It’s all good. I tend to agree with the QR on small booths. Especially since we are calc’ing for the worst case that all sprinklers will flow anyway. Seems that opening faster would be a good idea, but then again I’m not an engineer, just a guy who draws lots of lines and circles. Thank you, Bob Knight, CET III 208-318-3057<tel:208-318-3057> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2016 12:21 PM To: [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>; [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> Subject: RE: Paint spray application Yes indeed. I knew as soon as I hit send it was a bad idea. I have thought for several years there should be an exception for no QR in EH, ever since I understood the reasoning. I should have more soberly made my point that I think small paint booths are an excellent application -- if you calc all heads flowing why not use low temp QR? It would be the next best thing to open head deluge, would it not? And I apologize for the name calling and meaness of spirit, FWIW. There is no excuse for that. A big part of how I feel about myself is based on how i act on this Forum. Thanks, Brad On Aug 9, 2016 1:02 PM, "Bob" <[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: I have an example of one that I did in Salt Lake recently. It has 144 sprinklers in it. This counts all the exhaust ducts and stacks plus the ceiling sprinklers. Thank you, Bob Knight, CET III 208-318-3057<tel:208-318-3057> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] On Behalf Of [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2016 6:29 AM To: [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> Subject: RE: Paint spray application How many example of industrial spray booths with more than 40 heads would you like Brad? They exist and are not all that rare. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2M 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 Direct - 864.920.7540<tel:864.920.7540> Fax - 864.920.7129<tel:864.920.7129> CH2MHILL Extension 77540 [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 8:39 PM To: [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> Subject: RE: Paint spray application [EXTERNAL] Show me a spray booth with forty sprinklers Steve On Aug 8, 2016 7:36 PM, "Steve Leyton" <[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: Sure. And fires that can be spread by running fuel such as plastics and FCL’s (not to mention BLEVE’s) can set off 40 standard response sprinklers in a minute. I can only imagine the sheer volume of responding sprinklers and skipping that could occur based on how smooth or bumpy the roof/ceiling assembly is if you started wantonly plugging QR control-mode sprinklers into EH fires. (On paper) MDD = .80 ADD = .275 My opinion only, Steve L. From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 5:17 PM To: [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> Subject: Re: Paint spray application Shakey ground is all i have ever known Ken. I am no more a professional than you are. THINK MAN! small spaces with fast fires need the fastest acting sprinklers we can muster. I've been in court myself a couple times- neither one over sprinklers though-- please stop being so stodgy! On Aug 8, 2016 7:05 PM, "Parsley Consulting" <[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: I don't know, Brad. You're standing on pretty shaky ground there. The decision to use QR sprinklers in an extra hazard occpuancy is a direct contradiction to 8.4.1.1.2 of NFPA 13, including the 2016 edition, or a similar section number, at least as far back as the 1999 edition. If you install QR sprinklers in a space that is legitimately classed as an extra hazard occupancy, aren't you directly contradicting this particular section of NFPA 13? The handbook provides the following explanatory text on the topic: Extra hazard occupancies are characterized by the probability of fast-developing fires with high heat release rates that have the potential to open a large number of quick-response sprinklers before the sprinklers have time to control the fire. The operation of a large number of sprinklers in a relatively short time period has the potential to overtax the system. For this reason, quick-response sprinklers using the area design method of Chapter 11 are not permitted for the protection of extra hazard occupancies. Additional perspective on this can be found in the discussion of safety margin found in B.2.1. Further, I'm not aware of any QR sprinkler which has been tested and listed by an NRTL for use in protecting extra hazard occupancies. Barring that, to follow the guidance you're suggesting the contractor/designer/installer has to violate both NFPA 13 AND the listing of the sprinkler. I'm not suggesting the gloom and doom drama of "people could die", however it does concern me greatly when I read suggestions to ignore both texts. My thought about that is to make sure your insurance is paid up, and have a good lawyer on retainer. I don't know of a good defense while sitting in the witness chair to a question similar to, "Are you telling me you ignored the applicable law and the manufacturer's recommendations for the installation of that sprinkler?" When I have nightmares I think about having to answer questions similar to that. Ken Wagoner, SET Parsley Consulting 350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206 Escondido, California 92025 Phone 760-745-6181<tel:760-745-6181> Visit our website<http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/> On 08/08/2016 4:17 PM, Brad Casterline wrote: We're not suppose to use QR in EH either but I say balderdash. That is for big open spaces beacase you could have a bunch of heads going off way over there when the emergency is way over here. Small spaces with fast fires are better off if you use low temp qr and calc every head possible going off _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- Sent from Gmail Mobile _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
