I'd agree with Mark except for two little irritations of mine when discussing this. "Remote Area" was a term that worked when we just sprinklered big boxes that housed either factories or warehouses as the "remote area" (furthest from the rider) was typically the hydraulically most demanding area. These days that area can be anywhere (a grid being the always example). Hydraulically most demanding area is too muchoif a mouthful for describing itself so I just prefer design or demand area. This pet peeve came about from teaching newbies the basics as they'd often get it in their minds that remote meant furthest away and so would want to calculate the the x number of heads at the greatest distance as the crow flies over the plan. That is also the basis of pet peeve two that "remote area" also suggests that there is only one possibility and it's easy to find. Determining the design area(s) is an art. I have an exercise based on a building no one would ever build but it gas over a dozen potential design areas and just as Mark says the student needs to determine where and which are most likely by estimating demand at each location.
On Tuesday, August 30, 2016, <[email protected]> wrote: > My personal belief is that the designer “designs” the “remote” area into > the system, and a good designer will design the overall system to > economically benefit from “where” the remote area lies. Unfortunately, I > think most systems are laid out, sized, and then calculations are performed > to determine where the remote area lies. > > As Steve says “just my opinion” > > Mark at Aero > > 602 820-7894 > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] > *On Behalf Of *Bill Brooks > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 8:32 AM > *To:* [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation (Calculation Software) > > > > You will be able to tell this question is based on minimum software > application experience, but does current software automatically determine > “most demanding”? Or, is it up to the human operator to guess where this > area might be? If it’s a guess, how do you know you have chosen correctly? > > > > Bill Brooks > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] > *On Behalf Of *Steve Leyton > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 10:40 AM > *To:* [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation > > > > To underscore John’s point, these fittings impose with a SUBSTANTIAL > pressure loss. As 3rd party, we would ask for calculations to prove the > performance of the revised configuration. > > > > SL > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] > *On Behalf Of *Michael Hill > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 6:11 AM > *To:* [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation > > > > I agree with Richard, it needs to be evaluated. It is known that flex > piping is generally more demanding than their hard piped counterparts. If > the base building design did not include flex piping, I would look at it as > a change to base building design and perform a quick calculation to see how > it looks. I assume they didn’t use excessively long flex pipe with more > bends or lops than were needed. > > > > Mike Hill > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] > *On Behalf Of *Todd Williams > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 8:39 AM > *To:* [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation > > > > This is a single story building. Multiple looped 4" and 3" cross mains > with branches to wings. (Think nursing home with interior court yards). No > fire pump. 100 psi static with a flat curve (2 year old test, DeltaE = 0). > Area in question not most hydraulically remote but toward that end of the > building. Branch lines are fed from the loop, not a DE branch main. LH > occupancy. > > > > I am not worried about this not being adequate, more a consensus of what > needs to be done and what is correct. > > Todd G Williams, PE > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > Stonington, CT > > 860-535-2080 (ofc) > > 860-608-4559 (cell) > > > > Sent using CloudMagic > <https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti&cv=6.0.64&pv=8.2> > > > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 8:22 AM, Richard Carr <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: > > I can’t disagree with John (Hi John) but we need more info to make the > call, > > In remote area? > > Fire pump? > > What is safety margin on existing? > > What is friction loss on the flex? > > > > Just because you add 4 flex piping to an existing system does not require > it to be calculated. But does need to be evaluated. > > > > Richard Carr, SET > > Branch Manager > > Cox Fire Protection, Inc > > 6555 Grace Lane. > > Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 > > [email protected] <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > > 904-781-8227 > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] > *On Behalf Of *John Irwin > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 7:14 AM > *To:* [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation > > > > I disagree with Richard. (Hi Richard!) > > > > Relocating these sprinklers with flex heads may very well change the > location of the most hydraulically remote area to the place you are > working. Flex-heads come with a substantial pressure loss. Even if doing > calculations wasn’t required, I would want to do them for myself for peace > of mind. My belief has always been that you can’t tax the system without > verifying that it still works. > > > > *John Irwin* > > Manger – Fire Sprinkler Division > > > *Critical System Solutions, LLC *Cell: 813.618.2781 > > Email: [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > > > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] > *On Behalf Of *Richard Carr > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 7:08 AM > *To:* [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation > > > > Are the relocates in the remote area? if not I would not calc. also , some > flex brands are better that others as far as friction loss. > > > > Richard Carr, SET > > Branch Manager > > Cox Fire Protection, Inc > > 6555 Grace Lane. > > Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 > > [email protected] <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > > 904-781-8227 > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] > *On Behalf Of *Todd Williams > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 6:30 AM > *To:* [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > *Subject:* Flexheads in small renovation > > > > I have a client that did a 4 sprinkler relocate job in an office and used > Flexheads (no sprinklers added). If the sprinklers were connected with hard > pipe, I would probably not do hydraulic calculations. Given that we have > FHs, should I be doing a full 900 or 1500 sqft calculation? > > Todd G Williams, PE > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > Stonington, CT > > 860-535-2080 (ofc) > > 860-608-4559 (cell) > > > > Sent using CloudMagic > <https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti&cv=6.0.64&pv=8.2> > > > > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile
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