Travis, What you say here is true. It is also very helpful as you mention when you have multiple areas to calculate and you can't "eyeball" the most hydraulically remote. However it isn't without risk. Many times we have done this, and during our QC process realized some of the sprinklers were not setup properly for the hazard they are protecting, or found that a sprinkler was disconnected, or accidentally picked up sprinklers we didn't intend to. Same can be said about the piping network. Or someone accidentally copied a pipe that they manually overwrote 90's Tee's Valve's etc into a straight run rather than drawing them.
So, I agree AutoSprink can be very helpful with multiple calcs. I just offer the word of warning to those who think computers will be replacing smart designers anytime soon. Thanks, Sean VG From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 9:14 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Flexheads in small renovation (Calculation Software) And that is the beauty of software like AutoSprink. Just put the boundary on the plan. Select all of them you have and tell it to keep the hydraulically most demanding. Simple and sweet. When it may be a challenge for the AHJ to believe the area I select, then I will submit multiple areas just to eliminate questions. The software packages today and power of the personal computer make this entire thread a mute point - provided the information is available. If you have the system drawn, it is literally a matter of seconds to calculate an area. It is not like those of us who learned by hand back in the day and it would be a long drawn out process. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:[email protected]<mailto:email:[email protected]> http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack On 8/30/2016 9:08 AM, rongreenman . wrote: I'd agree with Mark except for two little irritations of mine when discussing this. "Remote Area" was a term that worked when we just sprinklered big boxes that housed either factories or warehouses as the "remote area" (furthest from the rider) was typically the hydraulically most demanding area. These days that area can be anywhere (a grid being the always example). Hydraulically most demanding area is too muchoif a mouthful for describing itself so I just prefer design or demand area. This pet peeve came about from teaching newbies the basics as they'd often get it in their minds that remote meant furthest away and so would want to calculate the the x number of heads at the greatest distance as the crow flies over the plan. That is also the basis of pet peeve two that "remote area" also suggests that there is only one possibility and it's easy to find. Determining the design area(s) is an art. I have an exercise based on a building no one would ever build but it gas over a dozen potential design areas and just as Mark says the student needs to determine where and which are most likely by estimating demand at each location. On Tuesday, August 30, 2016, <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: My personal belief is that the designer "designs" the "remote" area into the system, and a good designer will design the overall system to economically benefit from "where" the remote area lies. Unfortunately, I think most systems are laid out, sized, and then calculations are performed to determine where the remote area lies. As Steve says "just my opinion" Mark at Aero 602 820-7894 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 8:32 AM To: [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> Subject: RE: Flexheads in small renovation (Calculation Software) You will be able to tell this question is based on minimum software application experience, but does current software automatically determine "most demanding"? Or, is it up to the human operator to guess where this area might be? If it's a guess, how do you know you have chosen correctly? Bill Brooks From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 10:40 AM To: [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> Subject: RE: Flexheads in small renovation To underscore John's point, these fittings impose with a SUBSTANTIAL pressure loss. As 3rd party, we would ask for calculations to prove the performance of the revised configuration. SL From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] On Behalf Of Michael Hill Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 6:11 AM To: [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> Subject: RE: Flexheads in small renovation I agree with Richard, it needs to be evaluated. It is known that flex piping is generally more demanding than their hard piped counterparts. If the base building design did not include flex piping, I would look at it as a change to base building design and perform a quick calculation to see how it looks. I assume they didn't use excessively long flex pipe with more bends or lops than were needed. Mike Hill From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 8:39 AM To: [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> Subject: RE: Flexheads in small renovation This is a single story building. Multiple looped 4" and 3" cross mains with branches to wings. (Think nursing home with interior court yards). No fire pump. 100 psi static with a flat curve (2 year old test, DeltaE = 0). Area in question not most hydraulically remote but toward that end of the building. Branch lines are fed from the loop, not a DE branch main. LH occupancy. I am not worried about this not being adequate, more a consensus of what needs to be done and what is correct. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell) Sent using CloudMagic<https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti&cv=6.0.64&pv=8.2> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 8:22 AM, Richard Carr <[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: I can't disagree with John (Hi John) but we need more info to make the call, In remote area? Fire pump? What is safety margin on existing? What is friction loss on the flex? Just because you add 4 flex piping to an existing system does not require it to be calculated. But does need to be evaluated. Richard Carr, SET Branch Manager Cox Fire Protection, Inc 6555 Grace Lane. Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> 904-781-8227 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] On Behalf Of John Irwin Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 7:14 AM To: [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> Subject: RE: Flexheads in small renovation I disagree with Richard. (Hi Richard!) Relocating these sprinklers with flex heads may very well change the location of the most hydraulically remote area to the place you are working. Flex-heads come with a substantial pressure loss. Even if doing calculations wasn't required, I would want to do them for myself for peace of mind. My belief has always been that you can't tax the system without verifying that it still works. John Irwin Manger - Fire Sprinkler Division Critical System Solutions, LLC Cell: 813.618.2781 Email: [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] On Behalf Of Richard Carr Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 7:08 AM To: [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> Subject: RE: Flexheads in small renovation Are the relocates in the remote area? if not I would not calc. also , some flex brands are better that others as far as friction loss. Richard Carr, SET Branch Manager Cox Fire Protection, Inc 6555 Grace Lane. Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> 904-781-8227 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 6:30 AM To: [email protected]<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> Subject: Flexheads in small renovation I have a client that did a 4 sprinkler relocate job in an office and used Flexheads (no sprinklers added). If the sprinklers were connected with hard pipe, I would probably not do hydraulic calculations. Given that we have FHs, should I be doing a full 900 or 1500 sqft calculation? Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-608-4559 (cell) Sent using CloudMagic<https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti&cv=6.0.64&pv=8.2> -- Sent from Gmail Mobile _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
_______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
