I am of the opinion, and will not change my opinion, that if you can't do hand cal a you can't understand what's going on in a calc and so cannot read either hand or machine calcs. And if you can't read what you wrote how can you discern if you right (a mod to Ken's comment)? And if you don't understand the relationships in hydraulics how can you make any estimations, good guesses, or know when a quick trip to the scratch pad and pencil is or isn't the more efficient way to do the work (a nod to my earlier comment)?
On Tuesday, August 30, 2016, Michael Hill <[email protected]> wrote: > I guess I did not ooze enough sarcasm into the first comment. I have spent > a lot of time training computer operators to become designers. Hard to beat > the “computer says its right” out of them. The programs get better with > each version, but it still relies on a “trained professional” to input the > data. I started in the trade right as hand calcs were on the way out. I > struggle with a hand calc, but I generally find problems, or ways to > improve system design, pretty quick if you hand me someone calculations. > > > > I guess it is just sour grapes. I took the time to learn (I am still > learning) and understand my trade and some “kid” that can use a mouse and > somewhat understands the relationship between x, y & z can come in and > demand top pay as a designer and then have me fix his work for him. That > works me up from time to time. I still chug along and try to explain why > they were wrong, but I think it falls on deaf ears a large portion of the > time. > > > > Mike Hill > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] > *On Behalf Of *Parsley Consulting > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 12:53 PM > *To:* [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > *Subject:* Re: Flexheads in small renovation (Calculation Software) > > > > Mike, > Don't kid yourself. > If I could force one task one "computer operator" who sends me a set > of hydraulic calculations performed by integrated software it would be > "Show it to someone who *knows how to read* a set of calcs before you > submit it." > I've seen integrated software tell me that it was perfectly acceptable > to have a sprinkler show a flowing pressure of less than 6.5 psi, flow from > reference points with a 0.0 k-factor, and demand pressure which exceeded > the available pressure at the required flow by over 13 psi. There's > actually integrated software out there which will not provide any proof > that a grid system calculation had been peaked. And the "computer > operators" who submitted these calculations didn't have a clue why those > problems resulted in the submittal being rejected. > And the shock on the other end of the phone when these flaws are > pointed out rivals the "Cone of Silence" from the old TV show "Get Smart". > When the design of fire sprinkler systems and the preparation of > hydraulic calculations becomes just another computer video game, then GIGO > rears it's hammer, as it always will. > > > *Ken Wagoner, SET* > > > *Parsley Consulting350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206Escondido, California > 92025* > *Phone 760-745-6181**Visit our website > <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/> * > > On 08/30/2016 9:27 AM, Michael Hill wrote: > > The new software is so powerful, it only needs computer operators to use. > The sprinkler system designer has nearly been eliminated from the process. > > > > > > Mike Hill > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>] > *On Behalf Of *Travis Mack, SET > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 12:14 PM > *To:* [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > *Subject:* Re: Flexheads in small renovation (Calculation Software) > > > > And that is the beauty of software like AutoSprink. Just put the boundary > on the plan. Select all of them you have and tell it to keep the > hydraulically most demanding. Simple and sweet. > > When it may be a challenge for the AHJ to believe the area I select, then > I will submit multiple areas just to eliminate questions. > > The software packages today and power of the personal computer make this > entire thread a mute point - provided the information is available. If you > have the system drawn, it is literally a matter of seconds to calculate an > area. It is not like those of us who learned by hand back in the day and > it would be a long drawn out process. > > Travis Mack, SET > > MFP Design, LLC > > 2508 E Lodgepole Drive > > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > > 480-505-9271 > > fax: 866-430-6107 > > email:[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','email:[email protected]');> > > > > http://www.mfpdesign.com > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > > Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack > > On 8/30/2016 9:08 AM, rongreenman . wrote: > > I'd agree with Mark except for two little irritations of mine when > discussing this. "Remote Area" was a term that worked when we just > sprinklered big boxes that housed either factories or warehouses as the > "remote area" (furthest from the rider) was typically the hydraulically > most demanding area. These days that area can be anywhere (a grid being the > always example). Hydraulically most demanding area is too muchoif a > mouthful for describing itself so I just prefer design or demand area. This > pet peeve came about from teaching newbies the basics as they'd often get > it in their minds that remote meant furthest away and so would want to > calculate the the x number of heads at the greatest distance as the crow > flies over the plan. That is also the basis of pet peeve two that "remote > area" also suggests that there is only one possibility and it's easy to > find. Determining the design area(s) is an art. I have an exercise based on > a building no one would ever build but it gas over a dozen potential design > areas and just as Mark says the student needs to determine where and which > are most likely by estimating demand at each location. > > > On Tuesday, August 30, 2016, <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: > > My personal belief is that the designer “designs” the “remote” area into > the system, and a good designer will design the overall system to > economically benefit from “where” the remote area lies. Unfortunately, I > think most systems are laid out, sized, and then calculations are performed > to determine where the remote area lies. > > As Steve says “just my opinion” > > Mark at Aero > > 602 820-7894 > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *Bill Brooks > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 8:32 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation (Calculation Software) > > > > You will be able to tell this question is based on minimum software > application experience, but does current software automatically determine > “most demanding”? Or, is it up to the human operator to guess where this > area might be? If it’s a guess, how do you know you have chosen correctly? > > > > Bill Brooks > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Leyton > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 10:40 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation > > > > To underscore John’s point, these fittings impose with a SUBSTANTIAL > pressure loss. As 3rd party, we would ask for calculations to prove the > performance of the revised configuration. > > > > SL > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *Michael Hill > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 6:11 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation > > > > I agree with Richard, it needs to be evaluated. It is known that flex > piping is generally more demanding than their hard piped counterparts. If > the base building design did not include flex piping, I would look at it as > a change to base building design and perform a quick calculation to see how > it looks. I assume they didn’t use excessively long flex pipe with more > bends or lops than were needed. > > > > Mike Hill > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *Todd Williams > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 8:39 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation > > > > This is a single story building. Multiple looped 4" and 3" cross mains > with branches to wings. (Think nursing home with interior court yards). No > fire pump. 100 psi static with a flat curve (2 year old test, DeltaE = 0). > Area in question not most hydraulically remote but toward that end of the > building. Branch lines are fed from the loop, not a DE branch main. LH > occupancy. > > > > I am not worried about this not being adequate, more a consensus of what > needs to be done and what is correct. > > Todd G Williams, PE > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > Stonington, CT > > 860-535-2080 (ofc) > > 860-608-4559 (cell) > > > > Sent using CloudMagic > <https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti&cv=6.0.64&pv=8.2> > > > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 8:22 AM, Richard Carr <[email protected]> wrote: > > I can’t disagree with John (Hi John) but we need more info to make the > call, > > In remote area? > > Fire pump? > > What is safety margin on existing? > > What is friction loss on the flex? > > > > Just because you add 4 flex piping to an existing system does not require > it to be calculated. But does need to be evaluated. > > > > Richard Carr, SET > > Branch Manager > > Cox Fire Protection, Inc > > 6555 Grace Lane. > > Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 > > [email protected] > > 904-781-8227 > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *John Irwin > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 7:14 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation > > > > I disagree with Richard. (Hi Richard!) > > > > Relocating these sprinklers with flex heads may very well change the > location of the most hydraulically remote area to the place you are > working. Flex-heads come with a substantial pressure loss. Even if doing > calculations wasn’t required, I would want to do them for myself for peace > of mind. My belief has always been that you can’t tax the system without > verifying that it still works. > > > > *John Irwin* > > Manger – Fire Sprinkler Division > > > *Critical System Solutions, LLC*Cell: 813.618.2781 > > Email: [email protected] > > > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *Richard Carr > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 7:08 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation > > > > Are the relocates in the remote area? if not I would not calc. also , some > flex brands are better that others as far as friction loss. > > > > Richard Carr, SET > > Branch Manager > > Cox Fire Protection, Inc > > 6555 Grace Lane. > > Jacksonville, Fl. 32205 > > [email protected] > > 904-781-8227 > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *Todd Williams > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 6:30 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Flexheads in small renovation > > > > I have a client that did a 4 sprinkler relocate job in an office and used > Flexheads (no sprinklers added). If the sprinklers were connected with hard > pipe, I would probably not do hydraulic calculations. Given that we have > FHs, should I be doing a full 900 or 1500 sqft calculation? > > Todd G Williams, PE > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > Stonington, CT > > 860-535-2080 (ofc) > > 860-608-4559 (cell) > > > > Sent using CloudMagic > <https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=ti&cv=6.0.64&pv=8.2> > > > > > > -- > Sent from Gmail Mobile > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');> > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile
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