The new software is so powerful, it only needs computer operators to
use. The sprinkler system designer has nearly been eliminated from the
process.
Mike Hill
*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of
*Travis Mack, SET
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 12:14 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: Flexheads in small renovation (Calculation Software)
And that is the beauty of software like AutoSprink. Just put the
boundary on the plan. Select all of them you have and tell it to keep
the hydraulically most demanding. Simple and sweet.
When it may be a challenge for the AHJ to believe the area I select,
then I will submit multiple areas just to eliminate questions.
The software packages today and power of the personal computer make
this entire thread a mute point - provided the information is
available. If you have the system drawn, it is literally a matter of
seconds to calculate an area. It is not like those of us who learned
by hand back in the day and it would be a long drawn out process.
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:[email protected] <mailto:email:[email protected]>
http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via:https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack
On 8/30/2016 9:08 AM, rongreenman . wrote:
I'd agree with Mark except for two little irritations of mine when
discussing this. "Remote Area" was a term that worked when we just
sprinklered big boxes that housed either factories or warehouses
as the "remote area" (furthest from the rider) was typically the
hydraulically most demanding area. These days that area can be
anywhere (a grid being the always example). Hydraulically most
demanding area is too muchoif a mouthful for describing itself so
I just prefer design or demand area. This pet peeve came about
from teaching newbies the basics as they'd often get it in their
minds that remote meant furthest away and so would want to
calculate the the x number of heads at the greatest distance as
the crow flies over the plan. That is also the basis of pet peeve
two that "remote area" also suggests that there is only one
possibility and it's easy to find. Determining the design area(s)
is an art. I have an exercise based on a building no one would
ever build but it gas over a dozen potential design areas and just
as Mark says the student needs to determine where and which are
most likely by estimating demand at each location.
On Tuesday, August 30, 2016, <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
My personal belief is that the designer “designs” the “remote”
area into the system, and a good designer will design the
overall system to economically benefit from “where” the remote
area lies. Unfortunately, I think most systems are laid out,
sized, and then calculations are performed to determine where
the remote area lies.
As Steve says “just my opinion”
Mark at Aero
602 820-7894
*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>]
*On Behalf Of *Bill Brooks
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 8:32 AM
*To:* [email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
*Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation (Calculation
Software)
You will be able to tell this question is based on minimum
software application experience, but does current software
automatically determine “most demanding”? Or, is it up to the
human operator to guess where this area might be? If it’s a
guess, how do you know you have chosen correctly?
Bill Brooks
*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>]
*On Behalf Of *Steve Leyton
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 10:40 AM
*To:* [email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
*Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation
To underscore John’s point, these fittings impose with a
SUBSTANTIAL pressure loss. As 3^rd party, we would ask for
calculations to prove the performance of the revised
configuration.
SL
*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>]
*On Behalf Of *Michael Hill
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 6:11 AM
*To:* [email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
*Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation
I agree with Richard, it needs to be evaluated. It is known
that flex piping is generally more demanding than their hard
piped counterparts. If the base building design did not
include flex piping, I would look at it as a change to base
building design and perform a quick calculation to see how it
looks. I assume they didn’t use excessively long flex pipe
with more bends or lops than were needed.
Mike Hill
*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>]
*On Behalf Of *Todd Williams
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 8:39 AM
*To:* [email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
*Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation
This is a single story building. Multiple looped 4" and 3"
cross mains with branches to wings. (Think nursing home with
interior court yards). No fire pump. 100 psi static with a
flat curve (2 year old test, DeltaE = 0). Area in question not
most hydraulically remote but toward that end of the building.
Branch lines are fed from the loop, not a DE branch main. LH
occupancy.
I am not worried about this not being adequate, more a
consensus of what needs to be done and what is correct.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-608-4559 (cell)
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On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 8:22 AM, Richard Carr
<[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote:
I can’t disagree with John (Hi John) but we need more info
to make the call,
In remote area?
Fire pump?
What is safety margin on existing?
What is friction loss on the flex?
Just because you add 4 flex piping to an existing system
does not require it to be calculated. But does need to be
evaluated.
Richard Carr, SET
Branch Manager
Cox Fire Protection, Inc
6555 Grace Lane.
Jacksonville, Fl. 32205
[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
904-781-8227
*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>]
*On Behalf Of *John Irwin
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 7:14 AM
*To:* [email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
*Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation
I disagree with Richard. (Hi Richard!)
Relocating these sprinklers with flex heads may very well
change the location of the most hydraulically remote area
to the place you are working. Flex-heads come with a
substantial pressure loss. Even if doing calculations
wasn’t required, I would want to do them for myself for
peace of mind. My belief has always been that you can’t
tax the system without verifying that it still works.
*John Irwin*
Manger – Fire Sprinkler Division
*Critical System Solutions, LLC
*Cell: 813.618.2781
Email: [email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>]
*On Behalf Of *Richard Carr
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 7:08 AM
*To:* [email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
*Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation
Are the relocates in the remote area? if not I would not
calc. also , some flex brands are better that others as
far as friction loss.
Richard Carr, SET
Branch Manager
Cox Fire Protection, Inc
6555 Grace Lane.
Jacksonville, Fl. 32205
[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
904-781-8227
*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>]
*On Behalf Of *Todd Williams
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 6:30 AM
*To:* [email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
*Subject:* Flexheads in small renovation
I have a client that did a 4 sprinkler relocate job in an
office and used Flexheads (no sprinklers added). If the
sprinklers were connected with hard pipe, I would probably
not do hydraulic calculations. Given that we have FHs,
should I be doing a full 900 or 1500 sqft calculation?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-608-4559 (cell)
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