I'd agree with Mark except for two little irritations of mine when
discussing this. "Remote Area" was a term that worked when we just
sprinklered big boxes that housed either factories or warehouses as
the "remote area" (furthest from the rider) was typically the
hydraulically most demanding area. These days that area can be
anywhere (a grid being the always example). Hydraulically most
demanding area is too muchoif a mouthful for describing itself so I
just prefer design or demand area. This pet peeve came about from
teaching newbies the basics as they'd often get it in their minds that
remote meant furthest away and so would want to calculate the the x
number of heads at the greatest distance as the crow flies over the
plan. That is also the basis of pet peeve two that "remote area" also
suggests that there is only one possibility and it's easy to find.
Determining the design area(s) is an art. I have an exercise based on
a building no one would ever build but it gas over a dozen potential
design areas and just as Mark says the student needs to determine
where and which are most likely by estimating demand at each location.
On Tuesday, August 30, 2016, <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
My personal belief is that the designer “designs” the “remote”
area into the system, and a good designer will design the overall
system to economically benefit from “where” the remote area lies.
Unfortunately, I think most systems are laid out, sized, and then
calculations are performed to determine where the remote area lies.
As Steve says “just my opinion”
Mark at Aero
602 820-7894
*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>]
*On Behalf Of *Bill Brooks
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 8:32 AM
*To:* [email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
*Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation (Calculation Software)
You will be able to tell this question is based on minimum
software application experience, but does current software
automatically determine “most demanding”? Or, is it up to the
human operator to guess where this area might be? If it’s a
guess, how do you know you have chosen correctly?
Bill Brooks
*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>]
*On Behalf Of *Steve Leyton
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 10:40 AM
*To:* [email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
*Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation
To underscore John’s point, these fittings impose with a
SUBSTANTIAL pressure loss. As 3^rd party, we would ask for
calculations to prove the performance of the revised configuration.
SL
*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>]
*On Behalf Of *Michael Hill
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 6:11 AM
*To:* [email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
*Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation
I agree with Richard, it needs to be evaluated. It is known that
flex piping is generally more demanding than their hard piped
counterparts. If the base building design did not include flex
piping, I would look at it as a change to base building design and
perform a quick calculation to see how it looks. I assume they
didn’t use excessively long flex pipe with more bends or lops than
were needed.
Mike Hill
*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>]
*On Behalf Of *Todd Williams
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 8:39 AM
*To:* [email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
*Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation
This is a single story building. Multiple looped 4" and 3" cross
mains with branches to wings. (Think nursing home with interior
court yards). No fire pump. 100 psi static with a flat curve (2
year old test, DeltaE = 0). Area in question not most
hydraulically remote but toward that end of the building. Branch
lines are fed from the loop, not a DE branch main. LH occupancy.
I am not worried about this not being adequate, more a consensus
of what needs to be done and what is correct.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-608-4559 (cell)
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On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 8:22 AM, Richard Carr <[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote:
I can’t disagree with John (Hi John) but we need more info to
make the call,
In remote area?
Fire pump?
What is safety margin on existing?
What is friction loss on the flex?
Just because you add 4 flex piping to an existing system does
not require it to be calculated. But does need to be evaluated.
Richard Carr, SET
Branch Manager
Cox Fire Protection, Inc
6555 Grace Lane.
Jacksonville, Fl. 32205
[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
904-781-8227
*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>]
*On Behalf Of *John Irwin
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 7:14 AM
*To:* [email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
*Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation
I disagree with Richard. (Hi Richard!)
Relocating these sprinklers with flex heads may very well
change the location of the most hydraulically remote area to
the place you are working. Flex-heads come with a substantial
pressure loss. Even if doing calculations wasn’t required, I
would want to do them for myself for peace of mind. My belief
has always been that you can’t tax the system without
verifying that it still works.
*John Irwin*
Manger – Fire Sprinkler Division
*Critical System Solutions, LLC
*Cell: 813.618.2781
Email: [email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>]
*On Behalf Of *Richard Carr
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 7:08 AM
*To:* [email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
*Subject:* RE: Flexheads in small renovation
Are the relocates in the remote area? if not I would not calc.
also , some flex brands are better that others as far as
friction loss.
Richard Carr, SET
Branch Manager
Cox Fire Protection, Inc
6555 Grace Lane.
Jacksonville, Fl. 32205
[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
904-781-8227
*From:*Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>]
*On Behalf Of *Todd Williams
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2016 6:30 AM
*To:* [email protected]
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
*Subject:* Flexheads in small renovation
I have a client that did a 4 sprinkler relocate job in an
office and used Flexheads (no sprinklers added). If the
sprinklers were connected with hard pipe, I would probably not
do hydraulic calculations. Given that we have FHs, should I be
doing a full 900 or 1500 sqft calculation?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-608-4559 (cell)
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