Excellent point Steve. The Fire Dept. brings their own pump. Just this morning they squirted some oil here, loosened something there, wiped er all down and remaind ready for the alarm.
Brad. On Jan 30, 2017 5:46 PM, "Steve Leyton" <[email protected]> wrote: > Assuming that all system components are correctly designed (including the > water supply), if a fire pump should burn itself up in the course of a fire > event, then that's okay. Pumps are should be considered sacrificial and > could be just that if an entire water supply is consumed. > > SL > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 3:24 PM > To: Reza Esmaeili; [email protected] > Subject: RE: Selecting a Fire Pump/ Europeans vs. Americans > > Reza, > > It sounds like the pump will not be immediately damaged by running with a > very low back pressure. It is not a good idea to design a pump to run > continuously at over 140% of its rating - however with a fire control > system, if the pump reaches a point where it is discharging that amount of > water, then you are already outside of the design conditions. > > It is likely that the pump will continue running. Even if the pump does > require servicing due to cavitation damage or damage to the motor - the > main concern will be the damage from a fire that was large enough to open > that many sprinklers. > > Of course you can always change your design to handle a wider range of > conditions. The NFPA code is designed to provide a baseline of safety. You > can exceed the code minimums. It just requires more time and money. > > Matt > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] On Behalf Of Reza Esmaeili > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 4:08 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Selecting a Fire Pump/ Europeans vs. Americans > > Brad, > Thanks for your comment. It's not about water tank storage. It's about > considering the maximum flow at the area closet to the pump just in order > to select the right pump. Check this figure in VdS CEA 4001 Standard: > > http://www.sarian.ir/Pump-Curve.png > > Best, > Reza Esmaeili > > Email:[email protected] > Cell: +98 912 2444875 > Web: www.sarian.ir > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 1/31/17, Brad Casterline <[email protected]> wrote: > > Subject: RE: Selecting a Fire Pump/ Europeans vs. Americans > To: [email protected] > Date: Tuesday, January 31, 2017, 1:03 AM > > Isn't > the requirement for calculating the area closest to the pump only when > the water supply is water storage tank, to verify the tank capacity > against flow rate and duration? > > You are right though - American codes do not require the two > sets-- we calc 'most remote' and use that size all the way back because > the closer you get to the riser the more you will be flowing, hence the > concern about tank capacity. > > It is a can of worms that has not yet been opened here in 'the states'. > Brad > A 1000 > GPM rated pump will not likely produce a flow rate of 1800 GPM. It will > limit out most likely around 1650 to maybe 1700 GPM. It should then, > nonetheless provide the minimum design density at the lest demanding > design area. There is no code requirement to produce the maximum flow > capacity of a design area, only the minimum. > > Mark at Aero > > 602 820-7894 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum- > [email protected]. org] On Behalf Of Reza Esmaeili > > Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 1:56 PM > > To: sprinklerforum@lists. > firesprinkler.org > > Subject: Selecting a Fire Pump/ Europeans vs. Americans > > > > I am glad to write in this nice forum again! > > > > I don’t understand NFPA 20 for selecting fire pump: > “Maximum system demand flow should be between 90% and 140% of pump’s > rated capacity, but, in no case, greater than 150% of the pump’s rated > capacity”. > > > > That is to say if my total sprinkler and hose demand is 1400GPM, I can > simply choose a 1000GPM rated pump. 1400GPM is calculated based on the > most remote sprinklers, so what if the sprinklers nearer to pumps are > activated and my demand jump to 1800GPM? Then at high flow, there is a > possibility for cavitation and overloading the motor. Am I wrong? > > > > Europeans calculate differently. They calculate the demand both at the > most unfavourable area (most remote area) and most favourable area (near > the pump). For example if they calculate 1400GPM at most unfavourable and > 1800GPM at most favourable area, then based on these figures they choose > a pump. They also check 1800GPM on the pump curve to be sure it’s less > than 140% of rated capacity and also less than 16m NPSHr. > > > > VdS CEA 4001 Standard in Europe: The pump set shall be capable of > providing at least the flow and pressure of both the most favourable and > the most unfavourable areas. The maximum flow demand (Qmax) for supplying > the most favourable area may exceed the permitted rate by up to 40 %. The > pressure shall not fall by more than 30 % (of the pressure prevailing with > the permitted rate). The flow demand for the most unfavourable area shall > fall below the permitted rate at all times. > > > > NFPA 20 and VdS are somehow the same. They limit the maximum flow demand > up to 140% of rated capacity, but Europeans really calculate the minimum > and maximum demand and check this is less than 140% but American don’t > check anything. > So if like the above example an American designer make a tight selection > (Choosing a 1000GPM pump for 1400GPM demand), is there any possible > problem if the sprinklers near the pumps are activated and the pump runs > at 1800GPM? > > > > Best, > > > > Reza Esmaeili > > > > Email:[email protected] > > Cell: +98 912 2444875 > > Web: www.sarian.ir > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@lists. > firesprinkler.org > > http://lists.firesprinkler. > org/listinfo.cgi/ sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. org > > ______________________________ _________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@lists. > firesprinkler.org > > http://lists.firesprinkler. > org/listinfo.cgi/ sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. org > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org >
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