James: I know this comes off sounding a little big-headed but … I’m the chair of the committee and I’ve never heard of such balderdash. This isn’t a “post” or a “pylon” – those are structures. This is a pipe and part of a “building system” and also a part of the fire/life safety apparatus. The applicable dimensions are the ones that define clear egress path on the landings (as per the building code) and the elevation above fin floor as prescribed in NFPA 14 and/or per the responding fire agency. Whether the ports point out, down at a 45° angle or straight down at the floor is also up to the responding fire agency. I think your idea of getting an superseding opinion from the local AHJ (BO or FO) is sound.
SL From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of James Litvak Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 1:09 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: ANSI A1171.1 Figure 307.3 The standpipe is in a stairwell. Some of the stairs it'll be in the corner, others beside the door. All of them will be outside the required path of egress clearance. The definition of circulation path in A117.1 is "An exterior or interior way of passage from one place to another for pedestrians". It's pretty vague. Unfortunately there's no differentiation between, say, a hallway or a stairwell. I think I'll contact the building department and see what they think. Hopefully they'll write something for me saying that section doesn't apply. On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 3:40 PM Mike B Morey <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Unfortunately other than the fact that the drawings in the 3## section make it pretty obvious this isn't what they're talking about, there's no definitions. I figured if its a stairwell it's an easier shoot down for someone who wants to write their own interpretations since the conspicuous absence of stairs in pretty much this entire standard should make it pretty open and shut. You could argue its not those things and that the previous section says leading edge, which the leading edge of the handle if you put it parallel to the floor probably isn't more than 4" out. Basically this code section is to keep someone tapping a cane against the edge of the walking path from slamming into some random protruding object, if they hit the hand wheel it may not be super pleasant but its not the kind of protrusion, IMHO, this section addresses. Just one of those fun common sense vs power trip things probably. Standard disclaimer, these are my opinions only and have not been approved or reviewed by my employer. ________________________________ Mike Morey CFPS 3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677 Project Manager • Fire Protection Group Shambaugh & Son, LP an EMCOR Company 7614 Opportunity Drive • Fort Wayne, IN • 46825 direct 260.487.7824 / cell 260.417.0625 / fax 260.487.7991 email [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [cid:_2_0846049C0846000C0071963C852581D8] From: "rongreenman ." <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Date: 11/14/2017 03:25 PM Subject: Re: ANSI A1171.1 Figure 307.3 Sent by: "Sprinklerforum" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> ________________________________ Does the standard define the standpipe as a post or pylon? On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 12:10 PM Mike B Morey <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Where is the standpipe located? Are we talking a typical stairwell install or elsewhere? Section 307 starts off by stating that it governs circulation paths, and stairs aren't part of that definition in section 1005 based on a quick look. The standard is available several places online if you google it, not sure if they're "legal" copies but for the sake of answering the question I'd take a look at that angle. If its in a hall or something I'd imagine it could be put in a box in the wall or something. ________________________________ Mike Morey CFPS 3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677 Project Manager • Fire Protection Group Shambaugh & Son, LP an EMCOR Company 7614 Opportunity Drive • Fort Wayne, IN • 46825 direct 260.487.7824 / cell 260.417.0625 / fax 260.487.7991 email [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> From: James Litvak <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> To: "[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Date: 11/14/2017 02:59 PM Subject: ANSI A1171.1 Figure 307.3 Sent by: "Sprinklerforum" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> ________________________________ I'm working on building permit plans for a job, and the architect passed on an email from their accessibility consultant that the fire department hose valves can't protrude beyond the standpipe riser more than 4", per ANSI A117.1 figure 307.3. The text of that section is: 307.3 Post-Mounted Objects. Objects on posts or pylons shall be permitted to overhang 4 inches (100 mm) maximum where more than 27 inches (685 mm) and not more than 80 inches (2030 mm) above the floor. Objects on multiple posts or pylons where the clear distance between the posts or pylons is greater than 12 inches (305 mm) shall have the lowest edge of such object either 27 inches (685 mm) maximum or 80 inches (2030 mm) minimum above the floor. What they're saying is that we will need to turn an elbow up from the outlet of the standpipe and install the valve vertical. I've already told them this won't work anyway, since the valve itself has a 5" hand wheel, and due to takeouts, the least amount of projection physically possible is about 8". According to the consultant, the way to mitigate this is to install cane protection, which the architect appears to want to avoid. Is anyone aware of this code section, and does it apply the way I'm being told it does? In nearly 13 years as a designer, I've never been told such a requirement exists. James Charlotte, NC_______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwICAg&c=GKdB6-XpYq_0W-WluyVHtw&r=z4t2hrRBa-JsS06T4X_uuYOSJoclVWgSRO8Nq6TDdsg&m=wiCt1iqr5u69Txm-iBELel0Xzd3F5uGuCJUQXBz1wqg&s=xRsf5UToNzmQSkkENHTI-JrcpESCaLYKnTi-kcXYGmg&e= This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=GKdB6-XpYq_0W-WluyVHtw&r=z4t2hrRBa-JsS06T4X_uuYOSJoclVWgSRO8Nq6TDdsg&m=5qwVwJLjSTa1NIX64A78M2wWVYYDHlGdPLp5aekf9Eg&s=hCvxa01YwdjeSk4O21JWnAfEVWaoF93WIMHJkrFr_lM&e=> -- Sent from Gmail Mobile[attachment "attcgpkb.jpg" deleted by Mike B Morey/Shambaugh/EMCORGROUP] _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwICAg&c=GKdB6-XpYq_0W-WluyVHtw&r=z4t2hrRBa-JsS06T4X_uuYOSJoclVWgSRO8Nq6TDdsg&m=5qwVwJLjSTa1NIX64A78M2wWVYYDHlGdPLp5aekf9Eg&s=hCvxa01YwdjeSk4O21JWnAfEVWaoF93WIMHJkrFr_lM&e= _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
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