Concur and I’m still puzzled as to how the conversation with the EOR ended up in the context of ANSI A1171.1. We have always coordinated the location of standpipe risers (and the attached hose valves), floor control assemblies and collection drain risers with the available space on the landing. There’s a minimum required path of travel clearance and (at least in the markets we serve) NOTHING can be in that space. So you draw a dashed line for the radius of that path and keep your stuff out of it.
SL From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:48 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: ANSI A1171.1 Figure 307.3 Guys, It’s pretty simple code section, the opening text of 307 sets the scope; “Many items along the path of travel can be protruding object for persons with visual impairments, or persons who may be momentarily distracted. There are additional concerns during emergency events where smoke may obscure objects and people are hurrying to escape” There’s also concerns with visually impaired persons being able to detect protrucing objects with a long cane. The idea is to NOT have anything sticking out, generally more than 4”, that a person could walk into. I’ve seen this plenty of times where risers come up a stair in the middle of the landing with the valve sticking straight out. That puts it in the travel path and subjects pedestrians to striking the object, injury, risk of falling etc. Keep in mind also that a stairways primary function is means of egress and not a mechanical shaft so technically anything that impairs that primary mission could be cited. We need to reach back to the core mission and not get caught up in the manusha. Get the stuff out of the travel path, ours are in the corners with the valves parallel and tight enough to the wall to allow the valve to be hand opened and slightly canted outward to allow coupling up of the hose. Bottom line this is something that requires a collaborative approach between the architect and the fire protection engineer at the design stage not at the installation phase, i.e. 10# of stuff in 5# bag. John Drucker, CET Assistant Construction Official Fire Protection Subcode Official Electrical Subcode Official Building Inspector Borough of Red Bank, NJ 90 Monmouth Street Red Bank, New Jersey 07701 Cel/Text: 732-904-6823 Email: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Travis Allen- Allen Engineering Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 5:37 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: ANSI A1171.1 Figure 307.3 Much Ado About Nothing, indeed :-). The safe answer is always to check with the AHJ, for sure. However, whether it’s a post or pylon has little to do with following the bouncing ball of the code, even if it leaves us shaking our heads. The provision doesn’t only apply to posts or pylons. A117.1.2009 has the same requirement in 307.2 for any protrusion in a circulation path: “307.2 Protrusion Limits. Objects with leading edges more than 27 inches (685 mm) and not more than 80 inches (2030 mm) above the floor shall protrude 4 inches (100 mm) maximum horizontally into the circulation path. EXCEPTION: Handrails shall be permitted to protrude 4 1/2 inches (115 mm) maximum.” Same language as the IBC. This sure smells like a circulation path as defined by the code: “CIRCULATION PATH. An exterior or interior way of passage from one place to another for pedestrians.” And I can’t find any exceptions for exit enclosures or fire systems. And I hate to say it, but NFPA 14 is not the governing code, and it is silent on protruding objects in circulation paths anyway. Hopefully the AHJ will weigh the factors and design efforts to keep the sprinkler system from becoming an occupant hazard, where an accessibility consultant might not. I’ll get back to my college football playoff pool now, since it was upended this weekend. - Travis From: Steve Leyton [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 3:07 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: RE: ANSI A1171.1 Figure 307.3 James: I know this comes off sounding a little big-headed but … I’m the chair of the committee and I’ve never heard of such balderdash. This isn’t a “post” or a “pylon” – those are structures. This is a pipe and part of a “building system” and also a part of the fire/life safety apparatus. The applicable dimensions are the ones that define clear egress path on the landings (as per the building code) and the elevation above fin floor as prescribed in NFPA 14 and/or per the responding fire agency. Whether the ports point out, down at a 45° angle or straight down at the floor is also up to the responding fire agency. I think your idea of getting an superseding opinion from the local AHJ (BO or FO) is sound. SL From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of James Litvak Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 1:09 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: ANSI A1171.1 Figure 307.3 The standpipe is in a stairwell. Some of the stairs it'll be in the corner, others beside the door. All of them will be outside the required path of egress clearance. The definition of circulation path in A117.1 is "An exterior or interior way of passage from one place to another for pedestrians". It's pretty vague. Unfortunately there's no differentiation between, say, a hallway or a stairwell. I think I'll contact the building department and see what they think. Hopefully they'll write something for me saying that section doesn't apply. On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 3:40 PM Mike B Morey <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Unfortunately other than the fact that the drawings in the 3## section make it pretty obvious this isn't what they're talking about, there's no definitions. I figured if its a stairwell it's an easier shoot down for someone who wants to write their own interpretations since the conspicuous absence of stairs in pretty much this entire standard should make it pretty open and shut. You could argue its not those things and that the previous section says leading edge, which the leading edge of the handle if you put it parallel to the floor probably isn't more than 4" out. Basically this code section is to keep someone tapping a cane against the edge of the walking path from slamming into some random protruding object, if they hit the hand wheel it may not be super pleasant but its not the kind of protrusion, IMHO, this section addresses. Just one of those fun common sense vs power trip things probably. Standard disclaimer, these are my opinions only and have not been approved or reviewed by my employer. ________________________________ Mike Morey CFPS 3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677 Project Manager • Fire Protection Group Shambaugh & Son, LP an EMCOR Company 7614 Opportunity Drive • Fort Wayne, IN • 46825 direct 260.487.7824 / cell 260.417.0625 / fax 260.487.7991 email [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [cid:_2_0846049C0846000C0071963C852581D8] From: "rongreenman ." <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Date: 11/14/2017 03:25 PM Subject: Re: ANSI A1171.1 Figure 307.3 Sent by: "Sprinklerforum" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> ________________________________ Does the standard define the standpipe as a post or pylon? On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 12:10 PM Mike B Morey <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Where is the standpipe located? Are we talking a typical stairwell install or elsewhere? Section 307 starts off by stating that it governs circulation paths, and stairs aren't part of that definition in section 1005 based on a quick look. The standard is available several places online if you google it, not sure if they're "legal" copies but for the sake of answering the question I'd take a look at that angle. If its in a hall or something I'd imagine it could be put in a box in the wall or something. ________________________________ Mike Morey CFPS 3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677 Project Manager • Fire Protection Group Shambaugh & Son, LP an EMCOR Company 7614 Opportunity Drive • Fort Wayne, IN • 46825 direct 260.487.7824 / cell 260.417.0625 / fax 260.487.7991 email [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> From: James Litvak <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> To: "[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Date: 11/14/2017 02:59 PM Subject: ANSI A1171.1 Figure 307.3 Sent by: "Sprinklerforum" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> ________________________________ I'm working on building permit plans for a job, and the architect passed on an email from their accessibility consultant that the fire department hose valves can't protrude beyond the standpipe riser more than 4", per ANSI A117.1 figure 307.3. The text of that section is: 307.3 Post-Mounted Objects. Objects on posts or pylons shall be permitted to overhang 4 inches (100 mm) maximum where more than 27 inches (685 mm) and not more than 80 inches (2030 mm) above the floor. Objects on multiple posts or pylons where the clear distance between the posts or pylons is greater than 12 inches (305 mm) shall have the lowest edge of such object either 27 inches (685 mm) maximum or 80 inches (2030 mm) minimum above the floor. What they're saying is that we will need to turn an elbow up from the outlet of the standpipe and install the valve vertical. I've already told them this won't work anyway, since the valve itself has a 5" hand wheel, and due to takeouts, the least amount of projection physically possible is about 8". According to the consultant, the way to mitigate this is to install cane protection, which the architect appears to want to avoid. Is anyone aware of this code section, and does it apply the way I'm being told it does? In nearly 13 years as a designer, I've never been told such a requirement exists. James Charlotte, NC_______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwICAg&c=GKdB6-XpYq_0W-WluyVHtw&r=z4t2hrRBa-JsS06T4X_uuYOSJoclVWgSRO8Nq6TDdsg&m=wiCt1iqr5u69Txm-iBELel0Xzd3F5uGuCJUQXBz1wqg&s=xRsf5UToNzmQSkkENHTI-JrcpESCaLYKnTi-kcXYGmg&e= This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=GKdB6-XpYq_0W-WluyVHtw&r=z4t2hrRBa-JsS06T4X_uuYOSJoclVWgSRO8Nq6TDdsg&m=5qwVwJLjSTa1NIX64A78M2wWVYYDHlGdPLp5aekf9Eg&s=hCvxa01YwdjeSk4O21JWnAfEVWaoF93WIMHJkrFr_lM&e=> -- Sent from Gmail Mobile[attachment "attcgpkb.jpg" deleted by Mike B Morey/Shambaugh/EMCORGROUP] _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.firesprinkler.org_listinfo.cgi_sprinklerforum-2Dfiresprinkler.org&d=DwICAg&c=GKdB6-XpYq_0W-WluyVHtw&r=z4t2hrRBa-JsS06T4X_uuYOSJoclVWgSRO8Nq6TDdsg&m=5qwVwJLjSTa1NIX64A78M2wWVYYDHlGdPLp5aekf9Eg&s=hCvxa01YwdjeSk4O21JWnAfEVWaoF93WIMHJkrFr_lM&e= _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
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