you lose over half of your electricity making hydrogen. hydrogen production only makes economic and thermodynamic sense when produced from fossil fuels, not electrolysis.
Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 3:05 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: A Pollution-Free Car in Every Garage > Been awhile since I've contributed my two cents, new job, new home, > not much time for net access until now. Hello to all. > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ed Beggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > "unlimited hydro-electric"..or wind, geothermal, nuclear, tidal, PV, > > biodiesel-genset-H tank, biodiesel-reformer-fuel cell...there are > options to > > make this work and they will all be tried, but your point is taken > that we > > don't get something for nothing. > > > > the diesel won't be around forever and at some point will be > replaced, just > > as the advanced steam engines of the past were displaced by the > diesel. > > Ed- Yes, well put. We definately don't get something for nothing, but > I have always been intrigued by the concept of the power generation > moving away from on on-board ICE which is inherantly more polluting > and inefficient than a stationary power plant. There are of course all > kinds of issues relating to the overall energy efficiency including > production storage and transport of the hydrogen, but one of the > things I like about the concept is the potential reduction in > pollutants. > > I like to think in terms of pollution per mile driven. To me this is > the number I would most like to see reduced. For a given type of > vehicle, say an ICE, than greater fuel economy lowers this number, as > do alternative fuels that burn cleaner at the same (or comparable) > performance. Bio-diesel and ethanol- awesome! But when you start > talking about completely different powered vehicles, like fuel cells > or electric cars, you open the door to other possibilities of reducing > the pollution to miles driven ratio. I see the possibility of systems > that would use more of an original energy source to drive a certain > number of miles compared to an ICE run on the same source, but for > which the reduction of pollutants that a stationary 24hr a day > hydrogen generator or powerplant would gain over the ICE, would more > than offset this. > > I'm sure I don't have the numbers exactly correct, but ballpark I seem > to remember that a stationary diesel generator running at a constant > RPM is something like 3 times more efficient than the one in your car > or truck with all the accelerating and braking and idling at > stoplights. So if you used that power to make hydrogen, you could > accept using up to 2/3 of that energy in making the hydrogen, > compressing it, and then converting it back to mechanical energy in > the vehicle, before you start losing out in the pollution to miles > driven game. If you make the H2 from hydro or wind or solar (there was > a recent "Science" article on PV's that directly split water which had > very impressive effciency) the picture looks even better. > > > > > Actually, any car is virtually pollution-free when it's in the > garage. It's > > when we drive around in 'em that the problems start. > > > > :-) > > -Andrew Doran > > > > > > > From: "Biofuels" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:36:52 +0100 > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] A Pollution-Free Car in Every Garage > > > > > > If the energy obtained from a given mass of hydrogen is 100% - > > > the energy taken to make that hydrogen by hydrolysis is 130% > > > It then takes another 30% to compress it for portability > > > Making it, in all, in all 160% energy negative > > > > > > So much for the energy economy - unless you have access to > unlimited > > > hydro-electric power > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
