What comparisons? What makes you think that I was talking about Iraq? I am talking about the how, when, why the stuff was developed and built, not how it is being used now in Iraq. The weapon systems were developed for and during the cold war, when the USA and allies, was facing 10 to 1 or worse odds.
I'm not the one that brought Iraq into this. Greg H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 10:04 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Better, Faster & Deader Armour > Greg I find your comparisons not very comparable. And I'm not the > only one. Nor is this guy the only other one. > > http://www.TomPaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7431 > > Opposing War Is Not 'Appeasement' > An Interview With Stephen Walt, Harvard University > > Natasha Hunter is associate editor at TomPaine.com. > > TomPaine.com's Natasha Hunter spoke with Stephen Walt, professor of > international affairs at Harvard University, about historical > correlations that Bush and the media have made with the U.S. approach > to Iraq and its implications for global diplomacy. > > TomPaine.com: From the president on down to callers on C-SPAN, more > and more people are consciously using the term "appeasement" in > reference to softer positions on Iraq. Some even refer directly to > Neville Chamberlain and his policy of appeasement of Hitler in the > late 1930s. Is this a valid comparison? > > Professor Stephen Walt: No. It's a completely invalid comparison. > Appeasement means giving an adversary something it wants, rolling > over and letting an aggressor alter the status quo. The two options > that have been on the table for the past six months have been > containment or preventive war. Both of those are hard-nosed, > keep-Saddam-in-his-box-or-get-rid-of-him options. > > People who favor containment are not rolling over to Saddam. They > want to keep Iraq weak through sanctions, they want him to know that > if he uses force of any kind to threaten his neighbors, he'll face > massive opposition from much stronger countries, like us. These are > not pacifist strategies. Nobody has argued accommodating or appeasing > Saddam. The only serious argument has been between those who want to > contain Iraq through military deterrence, and those who want to > overthrow Saddam through preventive war. Neither of these options is > appeasement. > > TP.c: Is there a parallel between the threat that Saddam poses and > Hitler's threat in Europe? > > Walt: No. The German military power grew steadily from 1933 onward. > Adolf Hitler attacked nearly a dozen countries by the time he had > been in power for eight years. Iraq has gone to war only twice since > Saddam took power 30 years ago, and Iraq's armed forces are weaker > today than at any time in the past 20 years. Saddam Hussein and Adolf > Hitler are both evil despots, but Iraq is not Nazi Germany, Saddam is > not Adolf, and the Iraqi army is not the Wehrmacht. > > People use scary historical analogies when they don't have good > arguments based on the facts today. They try to scare us by talking > about bad people and disasters in the past. It's usually a sign that > you don't have the facts on your side when you have to go 60 years > into the past to find a way to inflate the threat. > > TP.c: If these comparisons are not apt, what other era in history > would you draw parallels with? > > Walt: Here's one. Another parallel would be Wilhelmine Germany, > between 1890 and 1914. In 1890 Germany had good relations with all > major powers in the world except France, which Bismarck had managed > to isolate through careful diplomacy. By 1914, however, Germany faced > combined opposition from Russia, France and Britain, and had only > Austria-Hungary as its allies. Germany did this by throwing its > weight around over that 20-year period, eventually causing its own > encirclement. > > Now look at the United States. When Cold War ended, the United States > was on good terms with nearly everyone in the world, and this > continued under the first Bush administration and the Clinton > Administration. > > Since 2000, though, we've seen a steady erosion in America's > diplomatic position, and unprecedented levels of anti-Americanism > worldwide. Today, we can't get even get five votes -- let alone a > majority of nine -- in the [United Nations] Security Council, even > when the issue on the table is how to deal with a tyrant like Saddam > Hussein. The Bush Administration's commitment to preventive war has > turned this dispute from a debate about Saddam into a debate about > American power, and that's not good news for the United States. What > we are witnessing is the progressive self-isolation of the United > States. > > The key thing I'd emphasize is that the issue is not where we are a > month from now. It's not how the war goes in the short term -- it'll > probably go pretty well. The issue is more where we are a year from > now. What condition Iraq is in, how our willingness to use force is > viewed in other countries and how this affects the much more > important campaign against terrorism. That we won't we know for a > while. I don't think this is going to have, on balance, positive > effects for our international position. > > Published: Mar 18 2003 > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > >Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 06:44 > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Better, Faster & Deader was Armour - was Dirty > >Bombing > > > > > > > Oh goodie goodie joy joy! > > > > > > We now have a "best part" when it comes to killing people better, faster > >and > > > deader, or keeping people alive a little longer so they can kill others > > > faster, better and deader. > > > > > > >What's a matter, a little to OT for you? If keeping our troops alive longer > >to kill more of the enemy, keeps me a free man ( or you and others for that > >matter ), your damn right. I'm not willing to trade my freedom for peace, > >we saw what happens with WW2 when that is done. It sounds like you would > >have rolled over and said "Well at least we have peace and everyone is > >alive", when Hitler started marching. I think that would have changed when > >he stopped marching and started doing other things. > > > > > If you guys enjoy all this so much, why not just re-up? No doubt there > >will > > > always be a demand for your services. > > > > > > >First migraine headaches and now too old. > > > > > > > > Maybe I can put some of this stuff to use in the garden to protect against > > > full frontal assault by groundhogs! > > > > > > >Many people do, it's called varmint shooting, and in some places it is a > >viable way to get rid of pest. Maybe you should try it. You would kill a > >mosquito if it landed on your arm wouldn't you? What about a hornworm on > >your tomatoes? What is it going to be, life at any cost? Even that of your > >own family? No thank you. > > > >Greg H. > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYxFAA/i5gGAA/FGYolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. 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