Hi Art, I'm not sure of all of the intricacies of how the Saharan dust gets to the Amazon, but here is one of several sources supporting this found via a quick Google search.
http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/divs/mpo/Academics/Projects/Liu.doc As you said, this is not at the crux of the discussion. It was just to give you an example of the fact that desert lands often have plenty of soil and are capable of growing food under the right conditions and it doesn't require 'hydroponics.' And, all of this is off the track of the original poster. His concept was of obtaining open desert land to be used for energy production, not to be used for food production. As I recall, you came back stating something to the effect that one couldn't live on a desert island because one couldn't produce food. As I understood his original post, and what I am supporting as possible, is the use of large tracks of open land for future production of energy, basically capturing the incident solar energy. And, I still can not see why one couldn't engineer a concept to do this. I can still remember being in Maracaibo years ago getting a car repaired. The garage had a large open lot to work on vehicles. About 40 feet above the lot they had a corrugated metal roof. It was early afternoon, and that roof looked to me to be red hot from the sunlight incident upon it. However, it was high enough that none of the heat radiating from that roof bothered us at ground level. As the 'building' didn't have any walls, there was more than enough light from the sides to work, and it was clear that the working conditions in the open lot were enhanced by having that simple roof to block the sun. So...although it wouldn't be economically feasible at this time...in future...I can visualize in places like Saudi large land areas where they have built solar collectors suspended well above the ground level. If they utilized roughly half of the incident light for electricity production, there would be plenty of remaining light below the structure to farm. The solar energy production could be supplemented by wind generators as they wouldn't block significant incident light from the solar collectors. The amount of light reaching ground level would be about what is needed to farm, and it wouldn't be nearly as hot at ground level either, and water needs would be consequently diminished. As I mentioned before, I currently see small scale structures in Saudi where they grow vegetables using translucent plastic roofs to allow only about half the incident light to reach the ground. It seems wasteful that the light blocked by the roof is not utilized...whereas if the roof were replaced by a solar collector it would be. Anyway...I doubt that I would see something large scale like that in my lifetime...but I think it would work as well or better than a lot of other large scale solar collector sci-fi type concepts. Regards, Derek > Bob, > > The PREVAILING winds do move from west to east in both hemispheres due to the > rotation of the earth. Hurricanes, which contain a large amount of energy, > can > move in a variety of directions - especially near the equator. > > Note the following: > > http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/weather/A0849225.html > trade winds, movement of air toward the equator, from the NE in the Northern > Hemisphere and from the SE in the Southern Hemisphere. The trade winds > originate > on the equatorial sides of the horse latitudes, which are two belts of high > air > pressure, one lying between 25¡ and 30¡ north of the equator and the other > lying > between 25¡ and 30¡ south of it. The high air pressure in these belts forces > air > to move toward a belt of low air pressure along the equator called the > doldrums. > The air converging at the doldrums rises high over the earth, recirculates > poleward, and sinks back toward the earth's surface in the region of the > horse > latitudes, thus completing a cycle. The air does not move directly north or > south because it is deflected by the rotation of the earth. See wind; > Coriolis > effect. > > It is not a serious point however. The issue for me is trying to generate > food > in desert like conditions. You can do it - you can also push water up hill > but > it all takes an inordinate amount of cheap energy to make it work. The goal > is > to make the system sustainable which means, most likely, that you need to > work > with nature rather than against it. > > Art > ----- Original Message ----- > From: bob allen > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:51 AM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable > Technology or Conservation Investments > > > actually Art, the winds do blow from east to west across the Atlantic > at least at the latitude which carries dust from the Sahara to the > Caribbean and northeast South America. Think Atlantic hurricanes which > are spawned off the coast of Africa and move in a westerly direction to > east coast of the US and caribbean islands. > > An interesting discussion of dust movement from east to west is in "The > Secret Life of dust" by Hanna Holmes. > > > > > Art Krenzel wrote: > > > Derek, > > > > Unless the prevailing wind has reversed its course on your world, the > wind > blows FROM the Amazon TO the Sahara desert (unless it goes around the world). > > There would be alot of other deserving people the Sahara winds would cross > before it got the Amazon that way around. > > > > I'm not saying the desert concept is worthless - I am saying that the > concept is not practical or sustainable without an inordinate dependence upon > alot of cheap energy. > > > > Art > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 2:34 AM > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable > Technology or Conservation Investments > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I vaguely recall reading that a lot of the nutrients for the Amazon are > carried by wind from the Sahara. Although a lot of the desert is 'just' sand, > most of it has plenty of soil. If given a bit of water it blooms. It is > amazing > what all pops up once there is a bit of rain. > > > > I think we basically agree on the best way to grow food, etc. But, I > don't > think Brian's suggestion of investing in desert land and adapting it to > future > energy production is without merit either. Certainly I don't think it should > be > discounted out of hand as a worthless idea. > > > > Regards, > > > > Derek > > > > > > > Derek, > > > > > > All the energy fuss doesn't cut ice. If it isn't sustainable, what > is > it? An > > > experiment? > > > > > > How much of your wheat is grown using water produced by reverse > osmosis? > Would > > > this be possible if the Saudi Arabian economy were not sustained by > the > sales of > > > oil to the rest of the world? Try the energy experience in the Sudan > economy > > > perhaps or Yeman and see how far it goes. > > > > > > The biggest places that are exporting food today have natural water > and > soil. > > > These has been the traditional basis for food production since the > beginning of > > > time. Not energy alone. Energy helps but if you have nothing to > eat, > all the > > > energy in the world doesn't do you a bit of good. > > > > > > You don't farm in a desert because there is insufficient water or > organic matter > > > in the sand to make the system work. Hydroponics does not compare > with > soil > > > produced food in quality or cost. As an experiment, it might work > fine > but to > > > produce food for 4 billion people it quickly fails. > > > > > > The problem with viewing the problem from only an energy standpoint > is > the > > > saying, "to a man with a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail". > > > Sustainability should be the watchword. > > > > > > Art > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:23 AM > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded > Sustainable > > > Technology or Conservation Investments > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Unlimited energy leads to all other needs. The most essential raw > product is > > > energy. Once one has energy they can recycle water, make water, grow > food in all > > > sorts of ways, etc. I've lived in the desert for ten years. It was an > eye opener > > > to realize how dependent life in the desert is on energy, and how > everything > > > else pales. I live in Saudi...number one in the world at making > potable > water > > > from the sea. They grow enough wheat to meet their own needs, and > export > the > > > excess. Life is dependent on energy like nowhere else. > > > > > > Please don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating this. I don't > consider much > > > this to be sustainable. But, I don't think it is wise to minimize the > importance > > > of energy as the fundamental building block under everything else. > > > > > > In the desert, it would be easily possible to harvest 50% of the > incident > > > light for electricity production and to farm with the remaining > light. > Brian is > > > right on. The future energy production for the world could well come > from > > > worthless deserts, with a top layer of Photovoltaics and vast farms > under the > > > light collectors. The energy could possibly be exported by either > microwaves or > > > hydrogen pipelines. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Derek > > > > > > > > > > Brian, > > > > > > > > Before you invest in "worthless" desert islands, you better make > sure you > > > can > > > > raise food on that island. Energy alone, whether hydrogen or > electricity, > > > makes > > > > a poor meal even for an energy guru. > > > > > > > > Art Krenzel, P.E. > > > > PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES > > > > 10505 NE 285TH Street > > > > Battle Ground, WA 98604 > > > > 360-666-1883 voice > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! 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