On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 12:39 AM Frederik Ramm <frede...@remote.org> wrote:
> There are many reasons why someone could be disappointed by this mailing > list, or by tagging discussions in general, and decide to stop > participating. > The way you write it above, however, sounds like you're assigning blame, > in precisely the disparaging way that Andy has pointed to in his other > message - you seem to be saying "I'm done with this lot, I don't like > the people here". > It would be helpful if people could refrain from making general > hand-wavy statements about mailing lists somehow being unworthy of their > time. Hey Frederik, I have no issue with discussion on the mailing list being a challenging process of refining proposals and ideas. I agree that the interests of tagging development necessitate this (although I do think analysis paralysis is very much an issue). It's just the same as any open source development, ideas are out there for all to see and criticism is expected and welcomed. That's what I'm here for though, not multiple threads in a single day full of thinly veiled personal attacks and projection. It does make me want to unsubscribe from the mailing list and I simply intended to share my experience in support of the points Nick had made about the atmosphere driving users away. Your final paragraph is interesting to me, it suggests that change isn't possible in the vein of "if tagging discussion isn't for you, go somewhere else". I don't believe that's quite what you intended to say, but I've slept on it now and that's actually what I'm going to do anyway. See you guys in the changesets! 😄 On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 12:39 AM Frederik Ramm <frede...@remote.org> wrote: > Hi, > > On 25.05.19 01:12, Silent Spike wrote: > > In support of Nick's points above, reading many of the discussions on > > this mailing list today has me just about ready to unsubscribe. > > There are many reasons why someone could be disappointed by this mailing > list, or by tagging discussions in general, and decide to stop > participating. > > The way you write it above, however, sounds like you're assigning blame, > in precisely the disparaging way that Andy has pointed to in his other > message - you seem to be saying "I'm done with this lot, I don't like > the people here". > > It would be helpful if people could refrain from making general > hand-wavy statements about mailing lists somehow being unworthy of their > time. > > For example, if you have a complex idea like e.g. the "disputed > boundaries" that we discussed a while ago, you need to bring a > combination of skills to the table to succeed: > > * You need the understanding and experience in OSM to create a workable > proposal. > > * You need clarity of thought and the ability to express your idea > clearly, even to people who are not native speakers of English (or you > might yourself not be). > > * You need diplomatic or political skills to find compromise, to get > others to support your idea, and the willingness to iterate again and > again. > > * and a lot of patience! > > This can be a demanding process and not everyone is cut out for it. Of > 10 who attempt it, perhaps one succeeds and the others throw in the > towel and even stop participating altogether. It would be sad, and a > little disingenuous, if these people were then running around telling > everyone how shite the tagging list is just because they didn't get > their proposal through on the first attempt. > > And the same happens on smaller scales of course. You could be > suggesting something and be faced with the opinions of people from the > other side of the globe, for whom what you suggest is outlandish, or of > people who live nearby but whose vision of OSM could not be more > different than your own. > > I'm sure the communications can be improved in many ways, but even if > everyone were super respectful, all this would still be *hard* and > taxing and many people would leave because they just don't have the > patience that decision making in a large, international group of > volunteers with minimal authoritarianism takes. Ask anyone who's working > at the EU or the UN... > > I think OSM on the whole should be welcoming for everyone, in that > everyone can find a place where they can make a useful contribution. But > I doubt that this mailing list, or any body that discusses tagging, can > ever be built in a way that everyone feels happy to contribute. > > So please, if you feel your talent is better applied to other areas of > OSM, just do it - that's great. There's no need for a "sour grapes" > approach because you found that tagging discussions were not for you. > > Bye > Frederik > > -- > Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" > > _______________________________________________ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >
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