Thanks for the comments Hans. > As Shawn and David, I think these types of actions make sense. It's > dangerous to think that "one size fits all."
Agreed, but could you elaborate on your reasons? You didn't explain why it is dangerous. By "one size fits all", do you mean assuming everyone should only use MVC? > But > there are exceptions where I think it's perfectly okay to use the > database access actions in JSP pages, e.g. > * for a small, company-internal application, when no one with enough > Java knowledge is around to develop servlets. I believe this is a > very common scenario that is often overlooked when programmers > discuss "the right way" to develop web applications. The alternatives > in a case like this are likely that the app doesn't get developed at > all, or that it's done with JDBC code is scriptlets, or (gasp!) > using ASP and Visual Basic code. Are you saying the these JSTL tags are easier to learn then the Java/Servlets required? What about understanding SQL and XML. Are you suggesting a developer would understand these enough to use them, but not with a programming language such as Java? What do you mean by "the right way"? Are you saying when developers talk about how to develop, "the right way" is equivalent to the only way that should be done? Overall your opinion seems to be the JSTL tags would just be easier and accomplish the same thing. I tend to think they are not easier at all, just a different approach. Do you think it is wise to promote the use of these tags to new users? Especially when it may result in a JSTL skillset compared to a sound understanding of what most people consider the best method of developing JSP/Servlet Web Applications. > * for any simple application, when its clear that it will not go > through major extensions; using just JSP pages with action elements > is probaly very cost-efficive in this case (lower development time). Probably? Is it quicker for you or any projects you have helped on? I have a hard time believing this would ever occur. Certainly if you have to train developers the what and how of MVC then it would take more time, but if the skillset exists certainly not. > * for prototyping an idea; if the proof-of-concept is successful, > the app can be redesigned with a servlet Controller, filters, and all > the other goodies after getting some experience with the basic > application functionality. This is another argument about development time? What about a MVC style design pattern is so time consuming? > As Shawn, I also see the URL actions as a perfect fit with the View > in MVC, no matter if you use servlets or not. XML processing can About the URL components. The import action seems nice, but not really practical. Is there a good case where it would be desired to directly import external content in to a web app? If the content needs to be further manipulated it makes sense Java would be desired to properly do it, so importing some XML, perhaps from a Web Service, is something that would much better be done by a Java class. Do you think the url tag is more helpful then a custom anchor-like tag? e.g. <a href="<c:url/>">link text</a> versus <c:a url="http://...";>link text</a> The custom anchor-like tag syntax is cleaner, and it would be easy to code any URL rewriting logic in to the custom tags setter method. What is a good use for the redirect tag? Cheers, Jayson Falkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Hans Bergsten wrote: > Jayson Falkner wrote: > >> Does anyone seriously use the JSTL XML, URL, and SQL tags? I'm looking >> for some reasons as to why they are helpful, but, I can't really find >> any. Obviously they work, but the important point seems to be the >> tag's functionality would best be placed elsewhere using Model 2 (MVC). >> >> If anyone is seriously using them and has a good argument as to why >> they are helpful, I'd like to discuss it with them further. Does anyone? > > > As Shawn and David, I think these types of actions make sense. It's > dangerous to think that "one size fits all." In general, I recommend > using a MVC design with a servlet as the Controller and all database > access performed by Java classes rather than action elements. But > there are exceptions where I think it's perfectly okay to use the > database access actions in JSP pages, e.g. > * for a small, company-internal application, when no one with enough > Java knowledge is around to develop servlets. I believe this is a > very common scenario that is often overlooked when programmers > discuss "the right way" to develop web applications. The alternatives > in a case like this are likely that the app doesn't get developed at > all, or that it's done with JDBC code is scriptlets, or (gasp!) > using ASP and Visual Basic code. > * for any simple application, when its clear that it will not go > through major extensions; using just JSP pages with action elements > is probaly very cost-efficive in this case (lower development time). > * for prototyping an idea; if the proof-of-concept is successful, > the app can be redesigned with a servlet Controller, filters, and all > the other goodies after getting some experience with the basic > application functionality. > > Even when only JSP pages are used, it's still a good idea to follow > the MVC patter, though; use separate JSP pages for View pages and > Controller/Model pages. This makes it easier to introduce servlets > when warranted. > > As Shawn, I also see the URL actions as a perfect fit with the View > in MVC, no matter if you use servlets or not. XML processing can > be either or, but there are cases where it makes perfect sense to > use them in pure View components. The only really controversial > actions are the database actions, but like I said, there are cases > where it's a good idea to use them. > > Hans -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
