Thanks Boris, that is a good insight. If you don't mind, have you personally found the JSTL SQL, XML, or URL tags (or equivalent other taglibs) helpful while working on a project? I.E. has there been a situation where you needed to get something done, and it worked out great to use those tags? If so what was the case(s)?
Thanks, Jayson Borislav Iordanov wrote: > Hi guys, > > Just my two cents in this discussion.... > > JSP is as much a programming technology as it is a presentation technology. > It is useful precisely because of the coupling of presentation and > programming facilities. There is little or no point in using JSP if the > programming constructs it offers (essentially tags and the Java language) > are left aside. The web has become a true application development platform > because of such technologies. And when it comes to application development, > the term "presentation" seems a bit of a misnomer - it actually refers to > true UI programming. In that context, I have yet to see a "web designer" > writing JSPs that is not familiar with programming in one language or > another. The so called "web designer" is often quite familiar with the > business logic of the application also, because he/she is doing actual > programming on top of it. I see a web designer as a person how really does > not know how to write an "if" statement in any language, but that's another > discussion. Even large, page-level MVC (i.e. with central controller > servlet) projects have JSPs with quite a bit of programming code in them. In > short, at least in my experience, this presentation only layer where data is > only formatted to look nice is a myth. Or where it is not a myth, the high > decoupling is somewhat artificial and creates an unnecessary complexity at > least as difficult to maintain as the mixture of programming and > presentation constructs in a single file. It very much depends on the > application at hand, but quite often maintenance is easy not so much when > you have n layers of abstractions, but when the code is short (but not to > short), clean and readable, when decisions are made in a single place (and > the right place) and the overall structure of an application is consistent > and intuitive. It takes good programmers to do that, not lack of > functionality that may be misused. So even if we leave out the prototype and > very small apps cases, I don't think JSTL SQL and XML can hurt quality of > code. On the opposite, they will improve it for people directly accessing > DBs and doing XML parsing/tranforms from the JSPs anyway. > > Cheers, > Boris > > ----------------------------------------- > Borislav Iordanov > Kobrix Software http://www.kobrix.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jayson Falkner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Tag Libraries Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:15 PM > Subject: Re: JSTL XML, URL, and SQL tags, does anyone use them? > > > >>Thank James, this is some good feedback. >> >>James Strachan wrote: >> >>>>I agree. Do you think the JSTL SQL and XML tags hurt future quality of >>>>code? >>> >>> >>>Huh? >> >>Just meaning maintenance as you answered later on in the e-mail. >> >> >>>>For instance, a MVC pattern can keep all of its View components >>>>regardless of changes to the backend. This is due to a clean abstraction >>>>and good interface (e.g. custom JavaBean). With something such as the >>>>JSTL SQL or XML tags you are restricted to a datasource or XML, >>>>respectively. >>> >>> >>>If your development team wish to go the whole hog and put custom bean >>>wrappers around every piece of information in your enterprise, then you >> > can > >>>happily use the core JSTL tags to work with that data. If you have some >> > SQL > >>>or XML data available you need to present in a web page, you can use the >> > SQL > >>>or XML tags - it gets the job done quickly. One size does not fit all, >>>choose the best tool for the job. Also there's value in an XP approach, >> > only > >>>refactor code to add layers and abstractions if you really need to do >> > so, > >>>don't do unnecessary development work unless there is a real need to do >> > so.. > >>Right, the concept it clear and I agree. What would be helpful is >>personally have the SQL and XML tags helped you? Have you found them >>handy when working on JSP/Servlet related projects, if so what type of a >>project was it and how much time to you think it saved? >> >> >>>>The advantage of using Java is getting everything Java supports. Namely, >>>>you can easily write up some validation and error handling code in Java. >>> >>> >>>But we're talking about page designers here, so Java is not relevant as >> > page > >>>designers typically are not Java developers. Maybe you're suggesting we >>>dispense with page designers altogether and just have Java developers >> > write > >>>Java Servlets for everything? >> >>I'm not suggesting page designers are to be dispensed with, but I do >>think someone who cares about XML and SQL related to the web app should >>be more then a page designer, e.g. they should understand Java. If you >>have people working on a project that are only page designers they >>should only focus on the page, not caring about where the dynamic >>content comes from or how it got there. >> >>Do you think it is a common to have a page designer fluent in HTML/XHTML >>and some client-side scripting also understand SQL or XML enough to be >>able to easily use the JSTL XML and SQL related tags? >> >>Cheers, >> >>Jayson Falkner >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >>-- >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>For additional commands, e-mail: > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
