Hi Jayson, Yes, I've used the JSTL SQL tags in a bioinformatics web application (managing users, experiments, experiment results, protocols, publications, a complex search on everything). There is a lot of UI logic related to retrieving data from the database in the JSPs, done with the SQL tags. And the JSPs are quite clean and maintainable. However, the situation is a bit different than the common case because I used our UI component tag library TICL, which you kindly added to the JspInsider listings a while ago and which lets you place UI components (TableView, TreeView, forms etc..) through tags in the JSP. In TICL, the tags deal only with the functional aspect of a UI component, MVC is implemented at the component level and you define the look&feel of the components (their HTML/DHTML rendering) elsewhere. So the combination of that with JSTL with its expression language, SQL and logic tags yielded JSPs with almost no HTML nor Java code in them. A big part of this application simply did not need any beans on top of the DB, the cost of doing that extra layer was not justified. And it's not just a prototype and it's not that small, and the web design is still separated from UI and business logic.
Cheers, Boris ----------------------------------------- Borislav Iordanov Kobrix Software http://www.kobrix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jayson Falkner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Tag Libraries Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:12 PM Subject: Re: JSTL XML, URL, and SQL tags, does anyone use them? > Thanks Boris, that is a good insight. > > If you don't mind, have you personally found the JSTL SQL, XML, or URL > tags (or equivalent other taglibs) helpful while working on a project? > I.E. has there been a situation where you needed to get something done, > and it worked out great to use those tags? If so what was the case(s)? > > Thanks, > > Jayson > > Borislav Iordanov wrote: > > Hi guys, > > > > Just my two cents in this discussion.... > > > > JSP is as much a programming technology as it is a presentation technology. > > It is useful precisely because of the coupling of presentation and > > programming facilities. There is little or no point in using JSP if the > > programming constructs it offers (essentially tags and the Java language) > > are left aside. The web has become a true application development platform > > because of such technologies. And when it comes to application development, > > the term "presentation" seems a bit of a misnomer - it actually refers to > > true UI programming. In that context, I have yet to see a "web designer" > > writing JSPs that is not familiar with programming in one language or > > another. The so called "web designer" is often quite familiar with the > > business logic of the application also, because he/she is doing actual > > programming on top of it. I see a web designer as a person how really does > > not know how to write an "if" statement in any language, but that's another > > discussion. Even large, page-level MVC (i.e. with central controller > > servlet) projects have JSPs with quite a bit of programming code in them. In > > short, at least in my experience, this presentation only layer where data is > > only formatted to look nice is a myth. Or where it is not a myth, the high > > decoupling is somewhat artificial and creates an unnecessary complexity at > > least as difficult to maintain as the mixture of programming and > > presentation constructs in a single file. It very much depends on the > > application at hand, but quite often maintenance is easy not so much when > > you have n layers of abstractions, but when the code is short (but not to > > short), clean and readable, when decisions are made in a single place (and > > the right place) and the overall structure of an application is consistent > > and intuitive. It takes good programmers to do that, not lack of > > functionality that may be misused. So even if we leave out the prototype and > > very small apps cases, I don't think JSTL SQL and XML can hurt quality of > > code. On the opposite, they will improve it for people directly accessing > > DBs and doing XML parsing/tranforms from the JSPs anyway. > > > > Cheers, > > Boris > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > Borislav Iordanov > > Kobrix Software http://www.kobrix.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jayson Falkner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Tag Libraries Users List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:15 PM > > Subject: Re: JSTL XML, URL, and SQL tags, does anyone use them? > > > > > > > >>Thank James, this is some good feedback. > >> > >>James Strachan wrote: > >> > >>>>I agree. Do you think the JSTL SQL and XML tags hurt future quality of > >>>>code? > >>> > >>> > >>>Huh? > >> > >>Just meaning maintenance as you answered later on in the e-mail. > >> > >> > >>>>For instance, a MVC pattern can keep all of its View components > >>>>regardless of changes to the backend. This is due to a clean abstraction > >>>>and good interface (e.g. custom JavaBean). With something such as the > >>>>JSTL SQL or XML tags you are restricted to a datasource or XML, > >>>>respectively. > >>> > >>> > >>>If your development team wish to go the whole hog and put custom bean > >>>wrappers around every piece of information in your enterprise, then you > >> > > can > > > >>>happily use the core JSTL tags to work with that data. If you have some > >> > > SQL > > > >>>or XML data available you need to present in a web page, you can use the > >> > > SQL > > > >>>or XML tags - it gets the job done quickly. One size does not fit all, > >>>choose the best tool for the job. Also there's value in an XP approach, > >> > > only > > > >>>refactor code to add layers and abstractions if you really need to do > >> > > so, > > > >>>don't do unnecessary development work unless there is a real need to do > >> > > so.. > > > >>Right, the concept it clear and I agree. What would be helpful is > >>personally have the SQL and XML tags helped you? Have you found them > >>handy when working on JSP/Servlet related projects, if so what type of a > >>project was it and how much time to you think it saved? > >> > >> > >>>>The advantage of using Java is getting everything Java supports. Namely, > >>>>you can easily write up some validation and error handling code in Java. > >>> > >>> > >>>But we're talking about page designers here, so Java is not relevant as > >> > > page > > > >>>designers typically are not Java developers. Maybe you're suggesting we > >>>dispense with page designers altogether and just have Java developers > >> > > write > > > >>>Java Servlets for everything? > >> > >>I'm not suggesting page designers are to be dispensed with, but I do > >>think someone who cares about XML and SQL related to the web app should > >>be more then a page designer, e.g. they should understand Java. If you > >>have people working on a project that are only page designers they > >>should only focus on the page, not caring about where the dynamic > >>content comes from or how it got there. > >> > >>Do you think it is a common to have a page designer fluent in HTML/XHTML > >>and some client-side scripting also understand SQL or XML enough to be > >>able to easily use the JSTL XML and SQL related tags? > >> > >>Cheers, > >> > >>Jayson Falkner > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > >>-- > >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
