keela, The result of tiddlywiki rendering is html. With the internals plugin you even get a html preview. Jeremy just pointed out a html file saved as doc can be opened in Microsoft word as a document (Word can save as html as well).
See https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/KPWjybITcLY keep in mind many before us have used TiddlyWiki for academic papers so search is your friend. Tones On Thursday, 15 July 2021 at 11:20:55 UTC+10 keela...@gmail.com wrote: > @Saq, I'm happy to contribute toward both of those ends you have > mentioned. Do let me know what else I should add to my description of my > workflow with Streams and TW, and I can fill in those blanks. I'd be happy > to write up something more thorough or brief, if that was of benefit. > > I'm also happy to share some specific examples of how I'd like to see it > flatten. My end game is getting a whole stream of tiddlers into one > document in either LaTeX or some kind of word processor, formatted as an > academic paper. My streams will consist of an series of tiddlers, some of > which are bold and serve as paper headings, and others which are entire > single paragraphs in the body of the paper draft. So imagine, a first > tiddler being a simple heading in bold followed by five or six more > tiddlers each one-paragraph long. Mash several of these sections together, > and that's a paper draft stream for me. If there's a way to flatten to > wikitext and somehow make the conversion to LaTeX or something that would > copy easily (and maintain formatting) into Google Docs or Microsoft Word, > then that wins the prize for me. I know you asked for specific tiddler > examples. Let me pull some out and I'll add them here, unless you'd prefer > they go to github instead. > > Again, I'm continually encouraged by your work on this and the direction > this conversation continues to take. > > On Sunday, July 11, 2021 at 7:08:23 PM UTC-5 TW Tones wrote: > >> Saq, >> >> I will endeavour to share examples of my extensive use of streams. For me >> streams may suffer from the same issue of TiddlyWiki as a whole and that is >> it is so flexible there may be as many uses as there are users, multiplied >> by the number of wikis they have. Some quick thoughts; >> >> - You may recall my input in the first phase of development, >> suggestions and ideas that urge a generalises solution, you took this on >> an >> have thus created an extraordinary tool. >> - I think this can continue going forward because of this underlying >> strength. for example; >> - Streams uses a parent and list field to organise nodes, it uses >> an automatic naming of tiddlers to let the user ignore this, and focus >> on >> the content. >> - As a result of this ground work I suggest not developing a >> solution for "flattening streams", but flattening hierarchical lists >> because this is the same effort and will have even broader >> applications. >> - Also don't really flatten such lists, perhaps mostly visually, >> because we should never design solutions that loose information, >> perhaps >> just hide it (see hide not flatten below) >> - I suspect many want to flatten a stream to move it, or copy it, >> again this is not necessary and potential loss of information. A way to >> export/import or drag and drop the whole stream as a JSON is possible >> - I have build such a tool for "packages" of tiddlers driven by a >> filter, I can share this. >> - The reverse process to (apparent) flattening is another generic >> solution we could use that would allow any structure such as the table of >> contents etc... to be converted to a parent/list structure including >> streams. >> - As you have done so well, allowing the generation of sub tiddler >> nodes titles to be altered is also a great benefit, as well as the >> ability >> to rename node tiddlers. Renaming a tiddler can also change its use eg >> temp >> system to standard tiddler. >> - Personally I believe we as a community need to start to share >> the algorithms for generating new and unique tiddler titles using >> different >> methods for different purposes. Personally all my streams currently >> use the >> following so nodes remain hidden until I consciously rename a node to >> make >> it appear in searches. "$:/s/<<now "[UTC]YY-0MM-0DD 0hh:0mm:0ss XXX">>" >> - Recent developments in 5.1.23/24 and 5.2 coming will assist in >> this such as variable/macros in filters can now include parameter's, >> the >> "unusedtitle Macro", format title list operator and more. >> >> Hide not flatten >> >> - I have being working on a range of hacks to support easy more and >> slider to display or hide content solutions in response to Mats >> discussion <https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/discussions/5839> >> - I see parallels with flattening where we can use existing, new >> or arbitrary html tags to store content in a nested manner without it >> showing in the output. >> - Streams can be the beginning of "a maturing of handling outlines >> and hierarchies in tiddlywiki", especially their encapsulation in a >> single >> tiddler or a stream (hierarchical list of tiddlers) >> >> How best may we collaborate and share the load? >> >> Regards >> Tones >> On Monday, 12 July 2021 at 04:53:22 UTC+10 Saq Imtiaz wrote: >> >>> Hi Walt, >>> >>> It seems like we are getting our wires crossed and I think I am partly >>> to blame for which I apologize. I am very accustomed to speaking to a >>> technical audience, OR a completely non-technical one. However here the >>> borders are muddled and it has led to me using terms more colloquially than >>> technically accurately, which it seems has caused confusion. >>> >>> What you have created is very impressive and interesting in its own >>> right, but not what I was thinking of. So let me take a crack at explaining >>> it once more using every day language. >>> >>> There are two separate topics here: >>> >>> *1) Understanding how other people use Streams and allowing Streams >>> users to learn from each other.* >>> We have in this thread descriptions of how several different users make >>> use of Streams for their intended purposes. For example this >>> <https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/-xTFWPwzq6g/m/FlXPa8dlAQAJ> >>> is how Keelan uses Streams. It would be good if we collected and added >>> these descriptions of how people are already using Streams to the Streams >>> documentation. Assistance with this would be fantastic. >>> >>> Later on details could be added to this where relevant, like exactly >>> which plugin and wiki settings were used and which other plugins. Some >>> users may even be comfortable sharing empty copies of their wiki for others >>> to learn from. >>> >>> The key here is that we are talking about descriptions of how people are >>> already using Streams. Not how they might hypothetically use it. >>> >>> *2) The issue of creating better options around export.* >>> What would be helpful here is if users that have such a need, shared >>> examples of their content. So let's say you used Streams to take notes on >>> fertilization methods in a tiddler called "Fertilization". I want to see >>> that tiddler and its streams nodes. Additionally, I want to see how you >>> would consolidate those nodes into a single tiddler if you had to do it by >>> hand. >>> >>> If you are not comfortable sharing actual tiddlers from your wiki due to >>> privacy concerns, then you could create a dummy version that has similar >>> content in length etc to your actual tiddlers but does not contain anything >>> private. The kind of things I need to understand are: how long are the >>> nodes typically? Is it just plain text? Are their widgets? Are their >>> images? Tables? etc.. >>> >>> Now if all of your content is similar to the nodes on the Fertilization >>> tiddler, then that is enough. However if you are using Streams for creating >>> different styles of content, such as say a To Do list, meeting notes and >>> writing essays, then such an example for each would be needed. >>> >>> Let us assume 6 users do this. That will hopefully give me enough >>> examples of the content people are writing with Streams to have a better >>> chance at coming up with a generalized solution that works for most people. >>> >>> If any of this still isn't clear, I would suggest we find a time for a >>> call to discuss before you put any more effort into it, so as to avoid any >>> chance of further misunderstanding. >>> >>> For the record what you did create is fantastic and if this were a >>> properly funded development effort we would indeed be using User Stories >>> representing hypothetical users and how they might want to use Streams as a >>> starting point to understand what was needed. However, this is one of many >>> side projects for someone that has their fingers in far too many pies, so >>> that approach isn't feasible. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Saq >>> On Sunday, July 11, 2021 at 8:14:48 PM UTC+2 ludwa6 wrote: >>> >>>> OK @Saq: I've taken a little run at creating a wiki to hold UseCase >>>> documentation for "TiddlyStreams" ; it's online at >>>> tiddlystreams.github.io , and if that looks to you like a move in the >>>> right direction, then i'll keep on going with it as time permits. If you >>>> or anyone wants to assist, i can add as users to the "tiddlystreams" >>>> organization, or i guess anyone can send a PR (it's a public repo)... or >>>> else just click the Comment Link (i.e. mailto:) at bottom of each tiddler. >>>> >>>> Funny thing: your feedback has caused me to question my understanding >>>> of the term UseCase, so i did a bit of digging; sounds to me like what you >>>> want (if this article >>>> <https://www.visual-paradigm.com/guide/agile-software-development/user-story-vs-use-case/> >>>> can >>>> be considered definitive) is more like a UserStory set, while i- the naive >>>> (i.e. non-dev) user in this conversation- have been trying to communicate >>>> more in terms of a technical solution. Awkward! (like when i'm insisting >>>> on speaking Portuguese to a local who really wants to speak English with >>>> me >>>> :-) >>>> >>>> /walt >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sunday, July 11, 2021 at 12:13:14 PM UTC+1 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> @walt >>>>> >>>>> As to the node-flattening issue.... i would like to see "wikitext" >>>>>> join the other 3 options (bullet list, numbered list and paragraphs) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So when I wrote "an actual real world example of what their content in >>>>> Streams is like, and what an ideal exported version in a single tiddler >>>>> in >>>>> TiddlyWiki would look like" my expectation was for users to provide wikis >>>>> with a representative example of their content in streams nodes, as well >>>>> as >>>>> a single tiddler version of it that they created by hand. For example one >>>>> tiddler with some stream nodes, the content of which is representative of >>>>> what their content is usually like. Plus one tiddler that is an >>>>> amalgamation of those nodes into a single tiddler. >>>>> >>>>> Having a few such examples might allow generalizing a few export >>>>> options that fit most use cases. The problem with receiving proposals for >>>>> solutions, rather than detailed description of the problem and related >>>>> content, is that often the proposed solutions don't fulfil the actual >>>>> needs >>>>> or consider technical limitations they would impose. For example, your >>>>> proposed solution would limit you to only ever having single line content >>>>> in all your nodes. >>>>> >>>>> Regarding use cases/workflows, I was referring to the manner in which >>>>> people are using Streams for note taking (the original subject of this >>>>> thread). We have a few examples now from Keelan, Si and others. It would >>>>> be >>>>> good to gather the descriptions of their workflows and add it to the >>>>> documentation. This could later be fleshed out with details on other >>>>> plugins, or wiki settings etc that they use to achieve their desired >>>>> workflow. Since there is not a single prescribed workflow for using >>>>> Streams, nor a vertical TiddlyWiki edition designed to accommodate it, >>>>> having examples of how people use Streams would allow knowledge sharing >>>>> amongst Streams user and be useful to the next person who has the same >>>>> question as you regarding how to use Streams for note taking. >>>>> >>>>> Help with collecting this to add it to the documentation would be >>>>> greatly appreciated. The easiest thing to do would be to collect the >>>>> information in a TiddlyWiki file. >>>>> >>>>> The other issue you've raised of particular interest to me is the >>>>>> mobile UseCase >>>>>> <#m_-8198863441457141583_m_5894866989922105173_m_4669617618061752614_m_7997663237905012663_m_8733339352981130668_m_3548407170148151557_UseCase> >>>>>> - >>>>>> which may be more properly considered a UserModel >>>>>> <#m_-8198863441457141583_m_5894866989922105173_m_4669617618061752614_m_7997663237905012663_m_8733339352981130668_m_3548407170148151557_UserModel> >>>>>> >>>>>> that could serve as extension to various UseCases >>>>>> <#m_-8198863441457141583_m_5894866989922105173_m_4669617618061752614_m_7997663237905012663_m_8733339352981130668_m_3548407170148151557_UseCases>. >>>>>> >>>>>> This in my case involves using Quine2 on iOS devices: iPhone and iPad -2 >>>>>> different form factors, which lend themselves to somewhat different >>>>>> modes >>>>>> of interaction. What's needed here is the ability to manipulate position >>>>>> in >>>>>> the hierarchy via swipe L/R, drag Up/Down. Is this what you're talking >>>>>> about in that Reddit thread you shared >>>>>> <https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/comments/o4wfcq/streams_visual_feedback_for_swipe_experiment/>? >>>>>> >>>>>> Or is there some other mode of mobile interaction to consider? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mobile usage is a tricky issue for TiddlyWiki. The design and UX >>>>> really isn't optimized for it. In particular, the drag and drop mechanism >>>>> doesn't work for all mobile browsers. This is a limitation of the >>>>> browsers >>>>> not implementing the relevant spec at all or properly. As such, >>>>> implementing proper support for this is outside the scope of a single >>>>> plugin. >>>>> >>>>> As I've expressed during earlier conversations on the same topic, I do >>>>> not intend to work on any mobile specific features or affordances for >>>>> Streams beyond any low hanging fruit that can be achieved with minimal >>>>> effort. Currently in Streams you can swipe on a node on mobile to trigger >>>>> the context menu. Add your own commands to the context menu is the way to >>>>> go for any features you absolutely need on mobile. >>>>> >>>>> The interest in the swipe with visual feedback feature actually comes >>>>> from a technical perspective. It is *very* impressive that such a >>>>> thing can be achieved with just wikitext, so I would like to see it >>>>> realized (time permitting) to serve as an example for others wanting to >>>>> explore similar UX. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Saq >>>>> >>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/eaedff38-d540-4c9a-9633-e967c568c8f6n%40googlegroups.com.
