@Saq: As shared in another post <https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/1TtXjYSGbPw/m/RPCdVXSxAgAJ> i've been too busy farming lately to think about this -but when i do get a chanc, the focus Q is: how can i use this software to simplify the crazy-making challenge of keeping track of all my crops and animals and machines and markets and all the other moving targets there are swirling about the complex open dynamical ecosystem that is the farm -this one, or any other.
While much of that data is scattered about in spreadsheets and Google docs and Trello cards and image archives etc., my Mission right now (as mentioned in the above-linked post) is to get it all centralised in version 2.0 of our farmOS, but it is one Very Big Rock to move -as evidenced by this browsable (JSON) view of farmOS API <https://vdl.farmos.dev/api/> , if you really want to know the bloody details... But here's a high-level view i've created in TiddlyStreams <https://tiddlystreams.github.io/#FarmingUseCases> for popular consumption. As to how Streams is facilitating my workflow: i use it for rapid outlining of ideas and documentation and links to all the online resources i am having to wrangle into my "One Wiki to Rule Them All," managed in TiddlyDesktop -from which i push information out to other wikis like TiddlyStreams <https://tiddlystreams.github.io>. That last step is still too frictional to be very productive; it's the archetypal "last mile" problem of impedance mismatch between input and output: the notational velocity of Streams vs the highly constrained aperture of channels for reception and distribution. Keelan has described that problem well, in context of academic publishing, and if you want to know about my context/ requirements in more detail, please do get in touch directly by whatever means. Given such range of specific requirements, maybe Tones idea of wikitext<->pandoc integration makes good sense, if i understood it right (but i probably didn't :-) Yours, Walt On Sunday, July 11, 2021 at 7:53:22 PM UTC+1 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote: > Hi Walt, > > It seems like we are getting our wires crossed and I think I am partly to > blame for which I apologize. I am very accustomed to speaking to a > technical audience, OR a completely non-technical one. However here the > borders are muddled and it has led to me using terms more colloquially than > technically accurately, which it seems has caused confusion. > > What you have created is very impressive and interesting in its own right, > but not what I was thinking of. So let me take a crack at explaining it > once more using every day language. > > There are two separate topics here: > > *1) Understanding how other people use Streams and allowing Streams users > to learn from each other.* > We have in this thread descriptions of how several different users make > use of Streams for their intended purposes. For example this > <https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/-xTFWPwzq6g/m/FlXPa8dlAQAJ> is > how Keelan uses Streams. It would be good if we collected and added these > descriptions of how people are already using Streams to the Streams > documentation. Assistance with this would be fantastic. > > Later on details could be added to this where relevant, like exactly which > plugin and wiki settings were used and which other plugins. Some users may > even be comfortable sharing empty copies of their wiki for others to learn > from. > > The key here is that we are talking about descriptions of how people are > already using Streams. Not how they might hypothetically use it. > > *2) The issue of creating better options around export.* > What would be helpful here is if users that have such a need, shared > examples of their content. So let's say you used Streams to take notes on > fertilization methods in a tiddler called "Fertilization". I want to see > that tiddler and its streams nodes. Additionally, I want to see how you > would consolidate those nodes into a single tiddler if you had to do it by > hand. > > If you are not comfortable sharing actual tiddlers from your wiki due to > privacy concerns, then you could create a dummy version that has similar > content in length etc to your actual tiddlers but does not contain anything > private. The kind of things I need to understand are: how long are the > nodes typically? Is it just plain text? Are their widgets? Are their > images? Tables? etc.. > > Now if all of your content is similar to the nodes on the Fertilization > tiddler, then that is enough. However if you are using Streams for creating > different styles of content, such as say a To Do list, meeting notes and > writing essays, then such an example for each would be needed. > > Let us assume 6 users do this. That will hopefully give me enough examples > of the content people are writing with Streams to have a better chance at > coming up with a generalized solution that works for most people. > > If any of this still isn't clear, I would suggest we find a time for a > call to discuss before you put any more effort into it, so as to avoid any > chance of further misunderstanding. > > For the record what you did create is fantastic and if this were a > properly funded development effort we would indeed be using User Stories > representing hypothetical users and how they might want to use Streams as a > starting point to understand what was needed. However, this is one of many > side projects for someone that has their fingers in far too many pies, so > that approach isn't feasible. > > Regards, > Saq > On Sunday, July 11, 2021 at 8:14:48 PM UTC+2 ludwa6 wrote: > >> OK @Saq: I've taken a little run at creating a wiki to hold UseCase >> documentation for "TiddlyStreams" ; it's online at >> tiddlystreams.github.io , and if that looks to you like a move in the >> right direction, then i'll keep on going with it as time permits. If you >> or anyone wants to assist, i can add as users to the "tiddlystreams" >> organization, or i guess anyone can send a PR (it's a public repo)... or >> else just click the Comment Link (i.e. mailto:) at bottom of each tiddler. >> >> Funny thing: your feedback has caused me to question my understanding of >> the term UseCase, so i did a bit of digging; sounds to me like what you >> want (if this article >> <https://www.visual-paradigm.com/guide/agile-software-development/user-story-vs-use-case/> >> can >> be considered definitive) is more like a UserStory set, while i- the naive >> (i.e. non-dev) user in this conversation- have been trying to communicate >> more in terms of a technical solution. Awkward! (like when i'm insisting >> on speaking Portuguese to a local who really wants to speak English with me >> :-) >> >> /walt >> >> >> On Sunday, July 11, 2021 at 12:13:14 PM UTC+1 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> @walt >>> >>> As to the node-flattening issue.... i would like to see "wikitext" join >>>> the other 3 options (bullet list, numbered list and paragraphs) >>>> >>> >>> So when I wrote "an actual real world example of what their content in >>> Streams is like, and what an ideal exported version in a single tiddler in >>> TiddlyWiki would look like" my expectation was for users to provide wikis >>> with a representative example of their content in streams nodes, as well as >>> a single tiddler version of it that they created by hand. For example one >>> tiddler with some stream nodes, the content of which is representative of >>> what their content is usually like. Plus one tiddler that is an >>> amalgamation of those nodes into a single tiddler. >>> >>> Having a few such examples might allow generalizing a few export options >>> that fit most use cases. The problem with receiving proposals for >>> solutions, rather than detailed description of the problem and related >>> content, is that often the proposed solutions don't fulfil the actual needs >>> or consider technical limitations they would impose. For example, your >>> proposed solution would limit you to only ever having single line content >>> in all your nodes. >>> >>> Regarding use cases/workflows, I was referring to the manner in which >>> people are using Streams for note taking (the original subject of this >>> thread). We have a few examples now from Keelan, Si and others. It would be >>> good to gather the descriptions of their workflows and add it to the >>> documentation. This could later be fleshed out with details on other >>> plugins, or wiki settings etc that they use to achieve their desired >>> workflow. Since there is not a single prescribed workflow for using >>> Streams, nor a vertical TiddlyWiki edition designed to accommodate it, >>> having examples of how people use Streams would allow knowledge sharing >>> amongst Streams user and be useful to the next person who has the same >>> question as you regarding how to use Streams for note taking. >>> >>> Help with collecting this to add it to the documentation would be >>> greatly appreciated. The easiest thing to do would be to collect the >>> information in a TiddlyWiki file. >>> >>> The other issue you've raised of particular interest to me is the mobile >>>> UseCase >>>> <#m_-3509157380434753402_m_7997663237905012663_m_8733339352981130668_m_3548407170148151557_UseCase> >>>> - >>>> which may be more properly considered a UserModel >>>> <#m_-3509157380434753402_m_7997663237905012663_m_8733339352981130668_m_3548407170148151557_UserModel> >>>> >>>> that could serve as extension to various UseCases >>>> <#m_-3509157380434753402_m_7997663237905012663_m_8733339352981130668_m_3548407170148151557_UseCases>. >>>> >>>> This in my case involves using Quine2 on iOS devices: iPhone and iPad -2 >>>> different form factors, which lend themselves to somewhat different modes >>>> of interaction. What's needed here is the ability to manipulate position >>>> in >>>> the hierarchy via swipe L/R, drag Up/Down. Is this what you're talking >>>> about in that Reddit thread you shared >>>> <https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/comments/o4wfcq/streams_visual_feedback_for_swipe_experiment/>? >>>> >>>> Or is there some other mode of mobile interaction to consider? >>>> >>> >>> Mobile usage is a tricky issue for TiddlyWiki. The design and UX really >>> isn't optimized for it. In particular, the drag and drop mechanism doesn't >>> work for all mobile browsers. This is a limitation of the browsers not >>> implementing the relevant spec at all or properly. As such, implementing >>> proper support for this is outside the scope of a single plugin. >>> >>> As I've expressed during earlier conversations on the same topic, I do >>> not intend to work on any mobile specific features or affordances for >>> Streams beyond any low hanging fruit that can be achieved with minimal >>> effort. Currently in Streams you can swipe on a node on mobile to trigger >>> the context menu. Add your own commands to the context menu is the way to >>> go for any features you absolutely need on mobile. >>> >>> The interest in the swipe with visual feedback feature actually comes >>> from a technical perspective. It is *very* impressive that such a thing >>> can be achieved with just wikitext, so I would like to see it realized >>> (time permitting) to serve as an example for others wanting to explore >>> similar UX. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Saq >>> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/34214975-f075-4135-b2a4-5c2ee2a507c5n%40googlegroups.com.
