Hi Miguel: This reply is not to beat on a colleague who has hit the sacred 3 post limit (two is too little, but four is too much). But I will note that Pavlov spent much of his time/space in Lecture I (Pavlov, 1927) arguing against the distinction between reflexes (as simple rigid behavior patterns) and instincts (defined by James and McDougall as more complex, flexible behavior patterns ). Pavlov’s solution was that the term “reflex” covered all such instances of rule-governed behavior. My favorite example is Pavlov’s description of a dog showing a “freedom reflex” in Lecture I.
Again, I am not saying that Pavlov has the correct solution but I am noting that textbook descriptions of the term reflex contradict both Pavlov and Skinner’s definition of the term, which I find to be an odd situation. I would be fine if textbook writers said to heck with Pavlov and Skinner’s definitions, I am going with Marshall Hall on this issue. But most don’t seem aware of this issue. (My cerebrum has chosen voluntarily to suppress my spinal cord activity and send you) Best regards, Ken > On Oct 7, 2018, at 3:39 PM, Miguel Roig <ro...@stjohns.edu> wrote: > > Ken, I admit to have always (and I mean always) understood and explained > reflexes using Hall's definition and I usually cover the topic in the > chapters of development and also in the chapter of learning/conditioning, > especially with respect to distinguishing reflexes from fixed action > patterns. I suppose that such a simplistic definition may be, arguably, > acceptable and even desirable in an introductory textbook but perhaps not for > a more advanced learning course (I have not taught the latter in decades!). > If, as you point out, this confusion still exists in the textbook literature, > especially in learning texts, and no one has clarified it in recent years, I > would think that an essay on the subject targeted to, say, Teaching of > Psychology (ToP) would be welcomed and might even lead to desired changes in > how authors address this important concept. Then, again, as the cases of > Kitty Genovese and of Little Albert have shown over the years, some textbook > authors don't seem to read ToP or similarly relevant literature! > > And I have now reached my quota of posts for today. Sigh ... > > Miguel > ________________________________________ > From: Kenneth Steele [steel...@appstate.edu] > Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 1:04 PM > To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) > Subject: Re: [tips] A question and a comment > > Hi Miguel: > > But here are some of the conundrums that you encounter with following the > Marshall Hall pathway. > > If a reflex is a simple, unlearned response to a stimulus then why do we talk > about conditioned reflexes as learned responses to a stimulus? Is a reflex > unlearned or learned? > > This position leads to the proposition that there are two kinds of reflexes: > learned and unlearned. Which leads to several questions. Isn’t a learned > reflex an oxymoron? How do you discriminate between the two type of reflexes? > How do you know that your unlearned reflex isn’t really a learned reflex, > since you can’t see the history of its development? (This issue was a > favorite of the American Functionalists - the TC Schneirla crowd.) > > I see learning textbooks (and students) trap themselves in contradictory > statements, leaving everybody confused. I can point to specific paragraphs > in learning textbooks which define a reflex as unlearned and then in the next > sentence define a conditioned reflex as learned. It is no wonder that > students find classical conditioning as a confusing topic. > > You are correct that Hall’s definition is the most popular. I send grad > students on a hunt through their subfields to find the most common > definition of a reflex and the Hall definition is the most popular, although > Marshall Hall is almost unknown as a name in psychology. I am not saying that > Skinner’s solution is the best but that textbooks have left students (and a > bunch of faculty) feeling very confused. > > I am glad that you were able to find the article. Google can be so helpful > at times. > > Best regards, > > Ken > > >> On Oct 7, 2018, at 12:33 PM, Miguel Roig <ro...@stjohns.edu> wrote: >> >> But, I like Hall's definition! And it is the definition for reflex that >> most introductory, and even some advanced textbooks, provide: A simple >> unlearned response to a stimulus. >> >> From the description provided by Schwarz, it seems as if he is using a >> 'looser' definition a la Skinner. But, yes, if you've already lost the >> ability to swallow ... WTH ... The quote is confusing!!! >> >> And thanks for the reference! Found it online via a simple Google search. ;-) >> >> Miguel >> ________________________________________ >> From: Kenneth Steele [steel...@appstate.edu] >> Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 10:20 AM >> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) >> Subject: Re: [tips] A question and a comment >> >> Hi Miguel: >> >> Few people understand that one reason that people have so much difficulty >> with the term ‘reflex’ is that there are several definitions of the term in >> use. Most people seem to be using Marshall Hall’s definition (unconscious, >> unlearned, involuntary behavior). >> >> I recommend Skinner (1931) ‘The concept of the reflex in the description of >> behavior’ J. Gen. Psych., 5, 427-458, to help unravel some of these uses. >> Read his summary for the Cliff Notes version of the history. (There are >> other histories, too.) >> >> Back to your original question, the quote makes no sense. If someone has a >> dysfunctional swallowing reflex then putting food into that person’s mouth >> is the worst thing you can do. The likely outcome is that the person will >> aspirate the food or liquid and choke. >> >> Ken >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Kenneth M. Steele, Ph.D. >> steel...@appstate.edu<mailto:steel...@appstate.edu> >> Professor >> Department of Psychology http://www.psych.appstate.edu >> Appalachian State University >> Boone, NC 28608 >> USA >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Oct 7, 2018, at 9:39 AM, Miguel Roig >> <ro...@stjohns.edu<mailto:ro...@stjohns.edu>> wrote: >> >> Good morning, here is question for your: I was reading this article on the >> lack of coverage of dementia situations in advance directives, >> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/30/well/live/an-advance-directive-for-patients-with-dementia.html >> (an interesting read in its own right) when I came upon the following >> quote: “People should at least understand what the normal process of >> advanced dementia is about,” Dr. Schwarz said. “Feeding tubes are not the >> issue — they’re not done when dementia is terminal. Instead, a caregiver >> will stand patiently at the bedside and spoon food into your mouth as long >> as you open it. Opening your mouth when a spoon approaches is a primitive >> reflex that persists long after you’ve lost the ability to swallow and know >> what to do with what’s put in your mouth.” My question: Is Schwarz >> referring to the rooting reflex? If so, isn't touching the cheek necessary >> for the reflex to be triggered and, if that is the case then, isn't what he >> is describing a learned behavior, even if its strength lies in it being >> grounded on an earlier reflex or something to that effect? I would >> appreciate any clarification on this. >> >> And now a comment or, really, a heads-up that is unrelated to the above >> question and perhaps not even real news to most of us: It concerns an >> article and a documentary about the high price of academic publishing. The >> article by Richard Smith, former editor of the BMJ is freely available from >> the latest issue of the Lancet, though you need to register to get it, >> https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)32353-5/fulltext. >> The article is based, in part on the documentary "Paywall". The video is >> over an hour long, but just the first 10 minutes will likely outrage even >> those who are already aware of the current state of academic publishing. You >> can check it out for free at: https://paywallthemovie.com/. >> >> Miguel >> >> This email may contain proprietary, confidential and/or privileged material >> for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, distribution >> or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >> recipient (or authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the >> sender by reply email and delete all copies of this message. >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to tips as: >> steel...@appstate.edu<mailto:steel...@appstate.edu>. >> To unsubscribe click here: >> http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13524.94845a3ed9806f1cef14973830dd8c39&n=T&l=tips&o=52866 >> or send a blank email to >> leave-52866-13524.94845a3ed9806f1cef14973830dd8...@fsulist.frostburg.edu<mailto:leave-52866-13524.94845a3ed9806f1cef14973830dd8...@fsulist.frostburg.edu> >> >> >> --- >> >> You are currently subscribed to tips as: >> ro...@stjohns.edu<mailto:ro...@stjohns.edu>. >> >> To unsubscribe click here: >> http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=3343621.18283a1227eb73d1ce74b7f7163cf851&n=T&l=tips&o=52867 >> >> (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) >> >> or send a blank email to >> leave-52867-3343621.18283a1227eb73d1ce74b7f7163cf...@fsulist.frostburg.edu<mailto:leave-52867-3343621.18283a1227eb73d1ce74b7f7163cf...@fsulist.frostburg.edu> >> >> This email may contain proprietary, confidential and/or privileged material >> for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, distribution >> or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended >> recipient (or authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the >> sender by reply email and delete all copies of this message. >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to tips as: steel...@appstate.edu. >> To unsubscribe click here: >> http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13524.94845a3ed9806f1cef14973830dd8c39&n=T&l=tips&o=52868 >> or send a blank email to >> leave-52868-13524.94845a3ed9806f1cef14973830dd8...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: ro...@stjohns.edu. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=3343621.18283a1227eb73d1ce74b7f7163cf851&n=T&l=tips&o=52869 > or send a blank email to > leave-52869-3343621.18283a1227eb73d1ce74b7f7163cf...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > This email may contain proprietary, confidential and/or privileged material > for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, distribution > or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient (or authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the > sender by reply email and delete all copies of this message. > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: steel...@appstate.edu. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13524.94845a3ed9806f1cef14973830dd8c39&n=T&l=tips&o=52870 > or send a blank email to > leave-52870-13524.94845a3ed9806f1cef14973830dd8...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@mail-archive.com. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=52871 or send a blank email to leave-52871-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
