Not that it matters, but I'm going to stick with Hall's definition. It's much simpler that way and it's a much cleaner definition.
On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 3:19 PM Kenneth Steele <steel...@appstate.edu> wrote: > Hi Miguel: > > This reply is not to beat on a colleague who has hit the sacred 3 post > limit (two is too little, but four is too much). But I will note that > Pavlov spent much of his time/space in Lecture I (Pavlov, 1927) arguing > against the distinction between reflexes (as simple rigid behavior > patterns) and instincts (defined by James and McDougall as more complex, > flexible behavior patterns ). Pavlov’s solution was that the term “reflex” > covered all such instances of rule-governed behavior. My favorite example > is Pavlov’s description of a dog showing a “freedom reflex” in Lecture I. > > Again, I am not saying that Pavlov has the correct solution but I am > noting that textbook descriptions of the term reflex contradict both Pavlov > and Skinner’s definition of the term, which I find to be an odd situation. > I would be fine if textbook writers said to heck with Pavlov and Skinner’s > definitions, I am going with Marshall Hall on this issue. But most don’t > seem aware of this issue. > > > (My cerebrum has chosen voluntarily to suppress my spinal cord activity > and send you) Best regards, > > Ken > > > > On Oct 7, 2018, at 3:39 PM, Miguel Roig <ro...@stjohns.edu> wrote: > > > > Ken, I admit to have always (and I mean always) understood and explained > reflexes using Hall's definition and I usually cover the topic in the > chapters of development and also in the chapter of learning/conditioning, > especially with respect to distinguishing reflexes from fixed action > patterns. I suppose that such a simplistic definition may be, arguably, > acceptable and even desirable in an introductory textbook but perhaps not > for a more advanced learning course (I have not taught the latter in > decades!). If, as you point out, this confusion still exists in the > textbook literature, especially in learning texts, and no one has clarified > it in recent years, I would think that an essay on the subject targeted to, > say, Teaching of Psychology (ToP) would be welcomed and might even lead to > desired changes in how authors address this important concept. Then, again, > as the cases of Kitty Genovese and of Little Albert have shown over the > years, some textbook authors don't seem to read ToP or similarly relevant > literature! > > > > And I have now reached my quota of posts for today. Sigh ... > > > > Miguel > > ________________________________________ > > From: Kenneth Steele [steel...@appstate.edu] > > Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 1:04 PM > > To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) > > Subject: Re: [tips] A question and a comment > > > > Hi Miguel: > > > > But here are some of the conundrums that you encounter with following > the Marshall Hall pathway. > > > > If a reflex is a simple, unlearned response to a stimulus then why do we > talk about conditioned reflexes as learned responses to a stimulus? Is a > reflex unlearned or learned? > > > > This position leads to the proposition that there are two kinds of > reflexes: learned and unlearned. Which leads to several questions. Isn’t > a learned reflex an oxymoron? How do you discriminate between the two type > of reflexes? How do you know that your unlearned reflex isn’t really a > learned reflex, since you can’t see the history of its development? (This > issue was a favorite of the American Functionalists - the TC Schneirla > crowd.) > > > > I see learning textbooks (and students) trap themselves in contradictory > statements, leaving everybody confused. I can point to specific paragraphs > in learning textbooks which define a reflex as unlearned and then in the > next sentence define a conditioned reflex as learned. It is no wonder that > students find classical conditioning as a confusing topic. > > > > You are correct that Hall’s definition is the most popular. I send grad > students on a hunt through their subfields to find the most common > definition of a reflex and the Hall definition is the most popular, > although Marshall Hall is almost unknown as a name in psychology. I am not > saying that Skinner’s solution is the best but that textbooks have left > students (and a bunch of faculty) feeling very confused. > > > > I am glad that you were able to find the article. Google can be so > helpful at times. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Ken > > > > > >> On Oct 7, 2018, at 12:33 PM, Miguel Roig <ro...@stjohns.edu> wrote: > >> > >> But, I like Hall's definition! And it is the definition for reflex > that most introductory, and even some advanced textbooks, provide: A simple > unlearned response to a stimulus. > >> > >> From the description provided by Schwarz, it seems as if he is using a > 'looser' definition a la Skinner. But, yes, if you've already lost the > ability to swallow ... WTH ... The quote is confusing!!! > >> > >> And thanks for the reference! Found it online via a simple Google > search. ;-) > >> > >> Miguel > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: Kenneth Steele [steel...@appstate.edu] > >> Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2018 10:20 AM > >> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) > >> Subject: Re: [tips] A question and a comment > >> > >> Hi Miguel: > >> > >> Few people understand that one reason that people have so much > difficulty with the term ‘reflex’ is that there are several definitions of > the term in use. Most people seem to be using Marshall Hall’s definition > (unconscious, unlearned, involuntary behavior). > >> > >> I recommend Skinner (1931) ‘The concept of the reflex in the > description of behavior’ J. Gen. Psych., 5, 427-458, to help unravel some > of these uses. Read his summary for the Cliff Notes version of the > history. (There are other histories, too.) > >> > >> Back to your original question, the quote makes no sense. If someone > has a dysfunctional swallowing reflex then putting food into that person’s > mouth is the worst thing you can do. The likely outcome is that the person > will aspirate the food or liquid and choke. > >> > >> Ken > >> > >> > >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Kenneth M. Steele, Ph.D. steel...@appstate.edu<mailto: > steel...@appstate.edu> > >> Professor > >> Department of Psychology http://www.psych.appstate.edu > >> Appalachian State University > >> Boone, NC 28608 > >> USA > >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> On Oct 7, 2018, at 9:39 AM, Miguel Roig <ro...@stjohns.edu<mailto: > ro...@stjohns.edu>> wrote: > >> > >> Good morning, here is question for your: I was reading this article on > the lack of coverage of dementia situations in advance directives, > https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/30/well/live/an-advance-directive-for-patients-with-dementia.html > (an interesting read in its own right) when I came upon the following > quote: “People should at least understand what the normal process of > advanced dementia is about,” Dr. Schwarz said. “Feeding tubes are not the > issue — they’re not done when dementia is terminal. Instead, a caregiver > will stand patiently at the bedside and spoon food into your mouth as long > as you open it. Opening your mouth when a spoon approaches is a primitive > reflex that persists long after you’ve lost the ability to swallow and know > what to do with what’s put in your mouth.” My question: Is Schwarz > referring to the rooting reflex? If so, isn't touching the cheek necessary > for the reflex to be triggered and, if that is the case then, isn't what he > is describing a learned behavior, even if its strength lies in it being > grounded on an earlier reflex or something to that effect? I would > appreciate any clarification on this. > >> > >> And now a comment or, really, a heads-up that is unrelated to the above > question and perhaps not even real news to most of us: It concerns an > article and a documentary about the high price of academic publishing. The > article by Richard Smith, former editor of the BMJ is freely available from > the latest issue of the Lancet, though you need to register to get it, > https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)32353-5/fulltext. > The article is based, in part on the documentary "Paywall". The video is > over an hour long, but just the first 10 minutes will likely outrage even > those who are already aware of the current state of academic publishing. > You can check it out for free at: https://paywallthemovie.com/. > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> This email may contain proprietary, confidential and/or privileged > material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, > distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not > the intended recipient (or authorized to receive for the recipient), please > contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies of this message. > >> > >> --- > >> You are currently subscribed to tips as: steel...@appstate.edu<mailto: > steel...@appstate.edu>. > >> To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13524.94845a3ed9806f1cef14973830dd8c39&n=T&l=tips&o=52866 > >> or send a blank email to > leave-52866-13524.94845a3ed9806f1cef14973830dd8...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > <mailto: > leave-52866-13524.94845a3ed9806f1cef14973830dd8...@fsulist.frostburg.edu> > >> > >> > >> --- > >> > >> You are currently subscribed to tips as: ro...@stjohns.edu<mailto: > ro...@stjohns.edu>. > >> > >> To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=3343621.18283a1227eb73d1ce74b7f7163cf851&n=T&l=tips&o=52867 > >> > >> (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is > broken) > >> > >> or send a blank email to > leave-52867-3343621.18283a1227eb73d1ce74b7f7163cf...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > <mailto: > leave-52867-3343621.18283a1227eb73d1ce74b7f7163cf...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > > >> > >> This email may contain proprietary, confidential and/or privileged > material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). 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