[TruthTalk] The Value of Sin?

[Judy Taylor]

DAVEH:  My latest comments are in BLUE.......

  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

DAVEH:  The point I'm trying to make (and find out why Protestants believe as they do), is that God could have created us and the world that way (devoid of the problems) from Day 1.  Yet for some reason, he allowed sin to enter into the equation.  Let me ask you, Judy.....do you believe God could have prevented Satan from tempting Eve (and us) and then we all could have lived in 'paradise'?  I assume you do.  Then let me ask another related question.......why did God prevent Adam/Eve from partaking of the fruit on the tree of life?

jt: You don't seem to get it Dave because you are trying to rationalize and make God into some image you have and I don't know that you will ever coming to an understanding this way,

DAVEH:  I realize that I will probably never understand it as you do, Judy.  I believe (due to my LDS perspective) I am thinking a few steps beyond what your theology has allowed your mind to perceive.

 

jt:  I don't think so Dave. Basically it is not a 'mind' thing. I am speaking of spiritual realities. God is Spirit and so Truth is "spiritual"  To be a worshipper we must worship Him in spirit and Truth and the Bible is a spiritual book. So it does not depend on theology or mind.  God looks at the heart.

 

DAVEH: In my opinion, God does not do things without reason.  In Biblical times, the reasons God did incomprehensible things were known as mysteries.  IMHO, mysteries are what the gospel is supposed to explain.

 

jt: There is the mystery of godliness and the mystery of iniquity; I don't know what other mystery you could be referring to. Actually the secret things still belong to the Lord

DAVEH:  To whom the prophets does he reveal those secrets....Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

 

jt: Please don't  follow this by claiming that Joseph Smith is one of His prophets... Yes, he did reveal to Abraham that he was going to destroy Sodom and he told Moses he was going to wipe out his people... but you've still not come up with any incomprehensible mystery and what is revealed is for us and for our children ...  God still hides things from folk who think themselves wise and prudent and reveals them to babes...  In Matt 13:13,14,15 Jesus tells his disciples that he speaks in parables to hide things rather than to reveal them

DAVEH:  Do you really think he was trying to hide things from the apostles and saints?  Read vs 10 and 11..... "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?  He answered and said unto them,, Because it is GIVEN UNTO YOU TO KNOW THE MYSTERIES of the kingdom of heaven, but to THEM IT IS NOT GIVEN."  From that it is quite apparent that the saints were to know the mysteries pertaining to the kingdom of heaven.  Do you disagree, Judy?  (Maybe I am misunderstanding what you've been saying.)

 

jt: I didn't say he hid things from his followers - but he is well able to hide them from those who do not come the narrow way.... I have heard so many ppl say that Jesus used that kind of imagery to make it simple. Things are not always what they appear.

 

DAVEH: Their religion had to develop a little at a time, at a pace they could handle.  And.....at times, they couldn't even handle that.  I believe the closer we get to the 'end', the more the Lord will reveal to us, and the less mysteries will confuse those who have the gospel truth.

 

 jt: There are no 'mysteries' confusing those who have the Truth today

DAVEH:  From what I've seen just conversing with you, there seems to be a big misunderstanding regarding the thief's perceived salvation.  I've addressed it in a couple parallel posts today.

 

jt: What is the problem with the "thief's salvation?" Jesus said that day he would be with him in Paradise. I see no problem. 
<snip>

jt: He has made a 'way of escape' for those who seek Him with their whole heart and are willing to obey Him. The temptations do not come from Him. I know Mormonism negates a personal adversary
DAVEH:  HUH?!?!?!  Why do you think such?  Who told you that?  Your perception is not correct.

 

jt It's not? Doesn't Mormonism teach that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers in heaven?

 
but that doesn't make him any less real and Paul writes to the church at Thessalonica that God Himself will send strong delusion to those who do not love the Truth so that they may believe the lie.

 

DAVEH:  That's part of it......But not the whole story.  The Bible teaches much more, but it has been suppressed to make a 'simpler' theology work for many more people.  While baptism in itself will not save anybody, I firmly believe without baptism, one cannot be saved.  (Mk 16:16 and Jn 3:5)

 

jt: Who has been doing the suppressing Dave? Regeneration by baptism is NOT a scriptural teaching.

 

DAVEH:  Once again I think you've made a false assumption, Judy.  Unless you specifically ask for a quotation from other Latter-day revelation, I will base most all my comments I post to TT from the Bible.  I use a KJV of the Bible, and accept is as the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

 

jt: I notice your little qualifier at the end... so who is qualified to translate the scriptures correctly IYO?

 
 God is not trying to make anything simpler for anybody.  He says "I am the Lord, I change not" but we as believers are to love ppl and encourage them to repent and to seek Him with their whole heart.  He deals with ppl as individuals. The thief who was forgiven on the cross went to Paradise without baptism.
DAVEH:  As I indicated at the beginning of this post....... that is another false assumption I believe you have made.  I'd love to hear your rebuttal to my explanation (in a couple parallel posts.)

 

jt: It's not an assumption - Jesus told him he would be in Paradise with him that very day.

 

Judy