jt: Biblically whenever angels appeared they spoke in line with the rest of
scriptureand the book of Mormon along with the other two books are 'another
gospel'
DAVEH: I respectfully
disagree.
The BoM is that sealed book prophesied
by Isaiah. (Is 29:11-18)
jt: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is
29:11-18 is the Scripture.
DAVEH:
Agreed. The question is......which Scripture? I believe it applies
to the BoM, which I believe is Scripture too. Now.....when you suggest
it is "Scripture", I assume
you mean that you think it refers to the Bible? How so? Was the
Bible sealed? Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned man who
said, "I cannot; for it is sealed"? And who was it delivered to that
said he was unlearned?
jt: So far as I am concerned (respectfully so) the book of Mormon is
extra biblical - the book had already been written - and does not qualify as
scripture... and yes the Bible is a sealed book, right now today to a lot of
people. Without the Holy Spirit unlocking the meaning and giving
spiritual understanding it is a closed volume. God hides things from the
wise and prudent and reveals them to babes - also no prophecy of scripture is
interpreted independently it must fit with the rest of scripture and there
should be two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible. Isaiah here is
speaking of Israel's restoration in the Messianic Age and there are many
corresponding scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is one.
DAVEH: Do you have specific
answers to my above questions, Judy?
jt: If you mean the name of the person who was unlearned - I don't have
one name in particular and many are too proud to admit they are blind (like
the Pharisees). They sat in the seat of Moses but when Jesus came in person
speaking God's Word they didn't recognize it or Him. So you could say the
scriptures were sealed to them even though they were teaching them and
believed themselves to be the experts.
I've read that JS was upset
DAVEH: I don't remember that. I think the word he used was
"confused".
with what he saw in the churches and can
understand this sentiment but he was deceived by the angel
DAVEH: The angel you speak of is Jesus
Christ himself.
and the Jesus of the LDS is 'another Jesus'
DAVEH: I respectfully
disagree. He is the same Jesus who died on the cross for
us.
jt: The angel Moroni with the eyeglasses is
not the Jesus who died on the cross for us DaveH and the Book of Mormon given
to Joseph Smith in upstate NY if I remember correctly is not in harmony with
God's Truth. In Galatians Paul writes that if anyone, even an angel of
god comes with a gospel other than what we have already received - let him be
accursed"
DAVEH: I'm not sure why you think
such, though you are right......I've heard it many times on TT.
jt: Probably because as the scriptures say
"His sheep recognize Hisvoice and another voice they do not
follow"
DAVEH:
Reference, please?
jt: John 10:4,5 and the Jesus of Mormonism is 'another voice'
DAVEH: Once again, I
respectfully disagree.
jt: DaveH, since you have embraced this other gospel, how do you know
which voice you are listening to?
DAVEH: FTR......My Jesus died for
me that I will live again. That is one very important part of
salvation.....to overcome physical death.
jt: Physical death is not the problem, we will
all die physically. It's the second death that should concern you - that is
spiritual death. Jesus said not to fear man because all he can do is
kill the body. We should fear God who can kill both body and
soul.
DAVEH: He also atoned for my sins IF I
availeth myself to him and endure to the end.......THEN I will "achieve" full
salvation. Now understand this, Judy. That I have to take some
steps by myself to reach that point where I can return to heaven, it is
something I canNOT do myself alone. It is only by virtue of our Lord's
grace that I have the opportunity to reach the full potential for which God
has foreordained me to obtain. I hope that helps you understand my
belief a bit better. (And, I hope I haven't confused you with my
explanation!)
jt: This sounds somewhat like the real but when you add the
ascending toward godhood
DAVEH:
That too is Biblical......"I
have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." PS
82:6 .........Some on this
Forum have denied that "gods" has a divine meaning. However, if you
consider the Lord's reply (Jn 10:34) to those who were trying to trap him into
a relationship with God, Jesus answered them.....
jt: The Jews were wanting to stone him for blasphemy because they said he
made himself equal with God.
".....Is it not written in your
law, I said, Ye are gods?" ........From this, it is quite obvious that "gods" in both
instances has divine properties.
jt: Only in the sense that men represent God on this earth. God uses
it for Moses when he stands before Pharoah Exodus 7:1.
dh: When you consider the overall
message of the Bible, Judy, it only makes logical sense. We were
created in the image of God (plural).
jt: The first man Adam was a
created being and he was created in the "image of God" (singular) -
but he fell and the rest of us who were in his loins fell with him. We
are born in a fallen state. Genesis 5:3 teaches that Adam lived
130yrs and had a son in his likeness (rather than Gods) who was
Seth..
dh: He is known to us by his
parental name, "Father". He has given us the tools to become like
him.....the commandments. He has give us a commandment to do
so. (Mt 5:48) Furthermore, he has told us that
we shall be like him. (1Jn 3:2)
jt: Dave you need to be born of the Spirit
so that you can understand the scriptures. You have them all mixed
up here. God is only Father to those who are in His son; he does
not claim devils and rebels. The commandments do not conform anyone to
His image, the ONLY way to return to that state is to be conformed to
the image of Christ and this can only happen by the power that comes
through His resurrection. The promise in 1 John 3:2 is to those who are
"in Christ" not just everyone out there.
dm: Now, why would you not
think you have the potential to become like God? Let me provide a
presumed answer for you.....because you are a sinner and God is
perfect. Is that correct, Judy?
jt: What makes you think that you
know how I think DaveH? I believe the scriptures and they teach
that God will cause me to overcome and I will be conformed to the 'image
of Christ'
dh: Then let me answer that our
Beloved Brother, Jesus, has provided a way that we can do so......by his
grace, specifically by virtue of his resurrection and atoning
sacrifice.
jt: As I have said already DaveH, the Jesus you speak of is another
one. He is not the same Jesus who is coming of His Church without spot,
wrinkle, or blemish....the whole temple ritual thing is from what
I've read taken from Masonic ritual and this is the old mystery
religious stuff, the regenerative principle - it dresses itself
differently outwardly but is basically the same as the high places in
Israel when they were in apostasy and also what TPW is into.
Judy
jt: Probably because what is logical sense to you makes no spiritual sense
to those of us who have been born of the Spirit and understand the scriptures in
this light. Not that we all agree on every detail as you've probably noted
from being on TT for so long; we are all at different places but the differences
are not that great and the Lord will bring it all together before His
return.
