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DAVEH: My latest
comments are in PINK.......
Judy Taylor wrote:
Hi DaveH, Glad to see you are back at home
now... [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
jt: Biblically whenever angels appeared they spoke in line with the rest of
scriptureand the book of Mormon along with the other two books are 'another
gospel'
DAVEH: Does that mean you have read
the BofM, Judy? Or are you basing your opinion on what you've heard from
others?
jt: I have a copy of the Book of Mormon DaveH but I can't honestly say I
have read it, scripture is my priority.
DAVEH: I respectfully
disagree.The BoM is that sealed book prophesied by Isaiah. (Is
29:11-18)
jt: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is
29:11-18 is the Scripture.
DAVEH: Agreed. The question is......which
Scripture? I believe it applies to the BoM, which I believe is
Scripture too. Now.....when you suggest it is
"Scripture", I assume you
mean that you think it refers to the Bible? How so? Was the
Bible sealed? Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned man
who said, "I cannot; for it is sealed"? And who was it delivered to
that said he was unlearned? jt: So far as I am concerned
(respectfully so) the book of Mormon is extra biblical - the book had
already been written - and does not qualify as scripture... and yes the
Bible is a sealed book, right now today to a lot of people. Without
the Holy Spirit unlocking the meaning and giving spiritual understanding it
is a closed volume. God hides things from the wise and prudent and
reveals them to babes - also no prophecy of scripture is interpreted
independently it must fit with the rest of scripture and there should be two
or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible. Isaiah here is speaking of
Israel's restoration in the Messianic Age and there are many corresponding
scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is one.DAVEH:
Do you have specific answers to my above questions, Judy? jt:
If you mean the name of the person who was unlearned - I don't have one name
in particular and many are too proud to admit they are blind (like the
Pharisees). They sat in the seat of Moses but when Jesus came in person
speaking God's Word they didn't recognize it or Him. So you could say the
scriptures were sealed to them even though they were teaching them and
believed themselves to be the experts.
DAVEH: Your interpretation of Isaiah's comments are much
'looser' than mine. While you believe his prophecy was symbolically
fulfilled by the Bible, I believe it was literally filled by the BoM.
When I think about the book being delivered to one who is learned, and he
says that he cannot read it because it is sealed.....how does that sound
like the Bible? Have you ever heard account of anybody saying
that?
jt: No symbolic about it DaveH. I believe it is being fulfilled today
and will be in the future, that is, literally fulfilled. And yes,
I have heard more than one preacher say that we are presently in a
famine for God's Word. You may not understand that it can be a
'dead letter' to some and God's
'living Word' to others. When it is a 'dead letter' it is as a
sealed book to that person.
I've read that JS was upset
DAVEH: I don't remember that. I think the word he used
was "confused".
with what he saw in the churches and can
understand this sentiment but he was deceived by the angel
DAVEH: The angel you speak of is Jesus
Christ himself.
and the Jesus of the LDS is 'another
Jesus'
DAVEH: I respectfully
disagree. He is the same Jesus who died on the cross for
us.
jt: The angel Moroni with the
eyeglasses is not the Jesus who died on the cross for me DaveH and the Book
of Mormon given to Joseph Smith in upstate NY if I remember correctly is not
in harmony with God's Truth. In Galatians Paul writes that if anyone,
even an angel of god comes with a gospel other than what we have already
received - let him be accursed" DAVEH: I'm not sure why you think such, though you are
right......I've heard it many times on TT. jt: Probably because as the scriptures say "His
sheep recognize Hisvoice and another voice they do not follow"
DAVEH: Reference,
please?
jt: John 10:4,5 and the Jesus of Mormonism is 'another voice'
DAVEH:
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
DAVEH: Once again, I respectfully
disagree.
jt: DaveH, since you have embraced this other gospel, how do you know
which voice you are listening to?
DAVEH: Because I feel I'm seeing it from both
sides.
DAVEH: FTR......My Jesus died for me
that I will live again. That is one very important part of
salvation.....to overcome physical death. jt: Physical death is not the problem, we will
all die physically. It's the second death that should concern you - that is
spiritual death. Jesus said not to fear man because all he can do is
kill the body. We should fear God who can kill both body and
soul. DAVEH: He also atoned
for my sins IF I availeth myself to him and endure to the end.......THEN I
will "achieve" full salvation. Now understand this, Judy. That I
have to take some steps by myself to reach that point where I can return to
heaven, it is something I canNOT do myself alone. It is only by virtue
of our Lord's grace that I have the opportunity to reach the full potential
for which God has foreordained me to obtain. I hope that helps you
understand my belief a bit better. (And, I hope I haven't confused you
with my explanation!)
jt: This sounds somewhat like the real but when you add the
ascending toward godhood
DAVEH:
That too is Biblical......"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are
children of the most High." PS 82:6 .........Some on this Forum have denied that "gods" has a divine
meaning. However, if you consider the Lord's reply (Jn 10:34) to those
who were trying to trap him into a relationship with God, Jesus answered
them.....
jt: The Jews were wanting to stone him for blasphemy because they said he
made himself equal with God.
DAVEH: EXACTLY! And Jesus pointed out that their own
Scripture allows for that. The reason they could not trap him in
blaspheme is because Jesus was nothing for which Scripture did not
allow. And as the Psamist suggested......it allows the same for
us.
jt: Judges on this earth who speak for God in matters of litigation and
the belief that men originated in heaven as gods and are in some
kind of an adept system that will get them back there are not the same.
".....Is it not written in your law, I
said, Ye are gods?" ........From this, it is quite obvious that "gods" in both instances
has divine properties.
jt: Only in the sense that men represent God on this earth. God
uses it for Moses when he stands before Pharoah Exodus
7:1.
DAVEH: That wasn't the
intent of Jesus' reply to them at all.
jt: Not your Jesus, but it was what
the Jesus of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was talking
about.
dh: When you consider the overall
message of the Bible, Judy, it only makes logical sense. We were
created in the image of God (plural).
jt: The first man Adam was a
created being and he was created in the "image of God"
(singular)
DAVEH: I disagree. He created
them in the image of a PLURAL God......Elohim. Gen
1:26...... "And God said, let US
make man in our image......"
jt: The Godhead is 'one God' which consists of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
and man is created in the image of God the Father of spirits in that he is
primarily a spirit being with a body and a soul. However, he is still a
created being, he is not God.
- but he (Adam) fell and the rest of us
who were in his loins fell with him. We now are born in a fallen state. Genesis
5:3 teaches that Adam lived 130yrs and had a son in his likeness (rather than
Gods) who was Seth..
dh: He is known to us by his
parental name, "Father". He has given us the tools to become
like him.....the commandments. He has give us a commandment to
do so. (Mt 5:48) Furthermore, he has told us
that we shall be like him. (1Jn 3:2)
jt: Dave you need to be born of
the Spirit so that you can understand the scriptures. You have
them all mixed up here. God is only Father to those who are in
His son; he does not claim devils and
rebels.
DAVEH: Do you allow that
he created them?
jt: At the time he created them they
were
good.
The
commandments do not conform anyone to His image, the ONLY way to
return to that state is to be conformed to the image of Christ and
this can only happen by the power that comes through His resurrection.
The promise in 1 John 3:2 is to those who are "in Christ" not just
everyone out there.
dm: Now, why would you not think
you have the potential to become like God? Let me provide a
presumed answer for you.....because you are a sinner and God is
perfect. Is that correct, Judy?
jt: What makes you think that you
know how I think
DaveH? DAVEH: I don't, but due to your (presumed)
Protestant background I sometimes make assumptions in order to speed up the
process of chatting in a forum such as TT. That is why I try to ask if I
have analyzed your thinking correctly whenever I do that. Otherwise the
discussions would bog down and take forever to complete.
I
believe the scriptures and they teach that God will cause me to
overcome and I will be conformed to the 'image of
Christ'
dh: Then let me answer that our
Beloved Brother, Jesus, has provided a way that we can do so......by
his grace, specifically by virtue of his resurrection and atoning
sacrifice.
jt: As I have said already DaveH, the Jesus you speak of is another
one.
DAVEH: My Jesus is the one who was
the only begotten Son of God, who died in our behalf on the cross and was
resurrected. He showed us the way we can return to heaven, and currently
has a resurrected body of flesh and bones. Whatever differences you
perceive we have about Jesus, I'm not sure, but do you agree with my description
so far, Judy?
jt: I'm not sure, you appear to have mastered the language but something
isn't right about it. Yours is not the same Jesus who is coming for His
Church which is without spot, wrinkle, or blemish....the whole temple ritual
thing is from what I've read taken from Masonic ritual and this is the old
mystery religious stuff, the regenerative principle - it dresses itself
differently outwardly but is basically the same as the high places in Israel
when they were in apostasy and also what TPW is into.
DAVEH: You've lost me on much of
that, Judy, as I don't recall discussing it with you. So, I am assuming
you are expressing your opinion based on things you have heard from folks other
than me?
DAVEH:
From the few things you've said so far, I think you have a lot of
misunderstandings about what I believe, Judy. I'm not
trying to convert you to Mormonism. Nor am I quoting Latter-day
Scripture to you. What I've done above is point out the Bible
supports one of my beliefs that you find unacceptable.jt: The Bible
doesn't support the belief that you are gods
(plural)
DAVEH: I quoted Jesus who pointed
out the Psalmist suggested just that to his detractors. If you don't
believe me, I understand. Why you don't believe our Lord, I don't
understand. Do you think I've twisted his words or intent?
jt: Yes I think you have done both because he was not speaking in that
context. The same word that is in John and Psalm 82 is in Exodus 7:1. Do
you believe Moses was also God?
and on your way back
to heaven in a physical body that does not die.
DAVEH: ??? Do you mean
you do not believe we will gain a resurrected body after our death? I
thought the resurrection is a commonly accepted principle amongst most
Christians. Perhaps I'm not understanding you on this, Judy.......Do you
believe you will exist just as a spirit after you die, and not receive a
resurrected body?
jt: No, I do believe those who are redeemed in the last resurrection will
receive a transformed body but they will always be creatures and never the
Creator.
Scripture is
speaking about gods (judges) who stand in for the one God on this earth - so
you see this is twisted.
DAVEH: IF that were a valid
explanation for Ps 82:6, then it would not have benefited Jesus to use that
passage in defense of his accusers claiming he is God. So, claiming "gods"
equates to "judges" removes the divine nature that Jesus used in his
defense. Does that make sense to you, Judy?
jt: Yes it does because Jesus layed aside the glory he had with the father
(his divinity) when he took on a body of flesh and during his earthly ministry
he became as one of us, a man, walking in a 'full measure' of the Holy
Spirit.
DAVEH: If you disagree (and I'm pretty
sure you do), I'd sure like to know why you think my analysis is wrong.
To me (from my LDS biased perspective), it all makes logical sense. I
don't understand why Protestants find it so hard to accept the basic message
of the Bible as I've tried to explain above.
jt: Probably because what is logical sense to you makes no spiritual
sense to those of us who have been born of the Spirit and understand the
scriptures in this light.
DAVEH: I would suggest that many
Christians blindly (and I don't mean to use that term in a pejorative
sense). Due to dogma adhered to for many centuries, many doctrines and
beliefs are simply accepted without considering contrasting possibilities.
I think you understand Scripture in light of what is commonly taught in
Protestantism.
jt: Are Mormons any less blind - following the revelations of Joseph Smith,
Brigham Young etc? But I am not led by men's dogma, I have the Holy Spirit
to lead me into all truth. The RCC have dogma because their ppl are not
permitted to interpret scripture for themselves. OTOH I believe
that Jesus has made me free and am not about to go back to any yoke of
bondage. Not that we all agree on every detail as you've probably
noted from being on TT
DAVEH: Yes.....I've noted some
major differences. I think your belief (assuming I understood you
correctly) that you will not have a physical resurrected body of flesh and bones
after you leave mortality is one major difference.
jt: No this is not a difference on my part - We've been discussing baptism
and even that is not a major difference really - it turned into different
ways of saying the same thing. We are at different places but the
differences are not that great and the Lord will bring it all together before
His return. Judy
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