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DAVEH: My latest comments are
in PINK.......
Judy Taylor wrote:
Hi DaveH, Glad to see you are back at home
now... [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
jt: Biblically whenever angels appeared they spoke in line with the
rest of scriptureand the book of Mormon along with the other two books
are 'another gospel'
DAVEH: Does that mean you have
read the BofM, Judy? Or are you basing your opinion on what you've
heard from others?
DAVEH:
I respectfully disagree.The BoM is that sealed book prophesied by Isaiah.
(Is 29:11-18)jt: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of
by the prophet Isaiah in Is 29:11-18 is the Scripture.
DAVEH: Agreed. The
question is......which Scripture? I believe it applies to the BoM,
which I believe is Scripture too. Now.....when you suggest it is
"Scripture", I assume
you mean that you think it refers to the Bible? How so? Was
the Bible sealed? Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned
man who said, "I cannot; for it is sealed"? And who was it delivered
to that said he was unlearned? jt: So far as I am concerned
(respectfully so) the book of Mormon is extra biblical - the book had already
been written - and does not qualify as scripture... and yes the Bible is
a sealed book, right now today to a lot of people. Without the Holy
Spirit unlocking the meaning and giving spiritual understanding it is a
closed volume. God hides things from the wise and prudent and reveals
them to babes - also no prophecy of scripture is interpreted independently
it must fit with the rest of scripture and there should be two or more
clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible. Isaiah here is speaking of Israel's
restoration in the Messianic Age and there are many corresponding scriptures
Isa 35:3-6 is one.DAVEH: Do you
have specific answers to my above questions, Judy? jt: If
you mean the name of the person who was unlearned - I don't have one name
in particular and many are too proud to admit they are blind (like the
Pharisees). They sat in the seat of Moses but when Jesus came in person
speaking God's Word they didn't recognize it or Him. So you could say the
scriptures were sealed to them even though they were teaching them and
believed themselves to be the experts.
DAVEH: Your interpretation
of Isaiah's comments are much 'looser' than mine. While you believe
his prophecy was symbolically fulfilled by the Bible, I believe it was
literally filled by the BoM. When I think about the book being delivered
to one who is learned, and he says that he cannot read it because it is
sealed.....how does that sound like the Bible? Have you ever heard
account of anybody saying that?
I've read that JS was upset
DAVEH: I don't remember that.
I think the word he used was "confused".
with what he saw in the churches and can understand this sentiment
but he was deceived by the angel
DAVEH: The angel you speak
of is Jesus Christ himself.
and the Jesus of the LDS is 'another Jesus'
DAVEH: I respectfully disagree.
He is the same Jesus who died on the cross for us.jt: The angel Moroni
with the eyeglasses is not the Jesus who died on the cross for us DaveH
and the Book of Mormon given to Joseph Smith in upstate NY if I remember
correctly is not in harmony with God's Truth. In Galatians Paul writes
that if anyone, even an angel of god comes with a gospel other than what
we have already received - let him be accursed" DAVEH:
I'm not sure why you think such, though you are right......I've heard it
many times on TT. jt:
Probably because as the scriptures say "His sheep recognize Hisvoice and
another voice they do not follow"
DAVEH: Reference, please?jt:
John 10:4,5 and the Jesus of Mormonism is 'another voice'
DAVEH: Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
DAVEH: Once again, I respectfully
disagree.jt: DaveH, since you have embraced this other gospel,
how do you know which voice you are listening to?
DAVEH: Because I feel I'm
seeing it from both sides.
DAVEH: FTR......My Jesus died for
me that I will live again. That is one very important part of salvation.....to
overcome physical death. jt:
Physical death is not the problem, we will all die physically. It's the
second death that should concern you - that is spiritual death. Jesus
said not to fear man because all he can do is kill the body. We should
fear God who can kill both body and soul. DAVEH:
He also atoned for my sins IF I availeth myself to him and endure to the
end.......THEN I will "achieve" full salvation. Now understand this,
Judy. That I have to take some steps by myself to reach that point
where I can return to heaven, it is something I canNOT do myself alone.
It is only by virtue of our Lord's grace that I have the opportunity to
reach the full potential for which God has foreordained me to obtain.
I hope that helps you understand my belief a bit better. (And, I
hope I haven't confused you with my explanation!) jt: This
sounds somewhat like the real but when you add the ascending toward
godhood
DAVEH: That too is Biblical......"I
have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
PS 82:6 .........Some
on this Forum have denied that "gods" has a divine meaning. However,
if you consider the Lord's reply (Jn 10:34) to those who were trying to
trap him into a relationship with God, Jesus answered them.....
jt: The Jews were wanting to stone him for blasphemy because they said
he made himself equal with God.
DAVEH: EXACTLY! And
Jesus pointed out that their own Scripture allows for that. The reason
they could not trap him in blaspheme is because Jesus was nothing for which
Scripture did not allow. And as the Psamist suggested......it allows
the same for us.
".....Is it
not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" ........From
this, it is quite obvious that "gods" in both instances has divine properties.
jt: Only in the sense that men represent God on this earth. God uses
it for Moses when he stands before Pharoah Exodus 7:1.
DAVEH:
That wasn't the intent of Jesus' reply to them at all.
dh: When you consider the overall
message of the Bible, Judy, it only makes logical sense. We were
created in the image of God (plural).
jt: The first man Adam was a created
being and he was created in the "image of God" (singular)
DAVEH: I disagree. He created
them in the image of a PLURAL God......Elohim. Gen 1:26......
"And God said, let US make man in
our image......"
- but he fell
and the rest of us who were in his loins fell with him. We are born in
a fallen state. Genesis 5:3 teaches that Adam lived 130yrs and had a son
in his likeness (rather than Gods) who was Seth..
dh: He is known to us by his parental
name, "Father". He has given us the tools to become like him.....the
commandments. He has give us a commandment to do so. (Mt 5:48)
Furthermore, he has told us that we shall be like him. (1Jn 3:2)
jt: Dave you need to be born of
the Spirit so that you can understand the scriptures. You have them
all mixed up here. God is only Father to those who are in His son;
he does not claim devils and rebels.
DAVEH:
Do you allow that he created them?
The commandments
do not conform anyone to His image, the ONLY way to return to that state
is to be conformed to the image of Christ and this can only happen by the
power that comes through His resurrection. The promise in 1 John 3:2 is
to those who are "in Christ" not just everyone out there.
dm: Now, why would you not think
you have the potential to become like God? Let me provide a presumed
answer for you.....because you are a sinner and God is perfect. Is
that correct, Judy?
jt: What makes you think that you
know how I think DaveH?
DAVEH: I don't, but due to your
(presumed) Protestant background I sometimes make assumptions in order
to speed up the process of chatting in a forum such as TT. That is
why I try to ask if I have analyzed your thinking correctly whenever I
do that. Otherwise the discussions would bog down and take forever
to complete.
I believe
the scriptures and they teach that God will cause me to overcome and I
will be conformed to the 'image of Christ'
dh: Then let me answer that our
Beloved Brother, Jesus, has provided a way that we can do so......by his
grace, specifically by virtue of his resurrection and atoning sacrifice.
jt: As I have said already DaveH, the Jesus you speak of is another
one.
DAVEH: My Jesus is the one who
was the only begotten Son of God, who died in our behalf on the cross and
was resurrected. He showed us the way we can return to heaven, and
currently has a resurrected body of flesh and bones. Whatever differences
you perceive we have about Jesus, I'm not sure, but do you agree with my
description so far, Judy?
He is not the same Jesus who is coming of His Church
without spot, wrinkle, or blemish....the whole temple ritual thing
is from what I've read taken from Masonic ritual and this is the old mystery
religious stuff, the regenerative principle - it dresses itself differently
outwardly but is basically the same as the high places in Israel when they
were in apostasy and also what TPW is into. Judy
DAVEH: You've lost me on much
of that, Judy, as I don't recall discussing it with you. So, I am
assuming you are expressing your opinion based on things you have heard
from folks other than me?
DAVEH: From the few things you've
said so far, I think you have a lot of misunderstandings about what I believe,
Judy. I'm not trying to convert you to Mormonism. Nor
am I quoting Latter-day Scripture to you. What I've done above is
point out the Bible supports one of my beliefs that you find unacceptable.jt:
The Bible doesn't support the belief that you are gods (plural)
DAVEH: I quoted Jesus who pointed
out the Psalmist suggested just that to his detractors. If you don't
believe me, I understand. Why you don't believe our Lord, I don't
understand. Do you think I've twisted his words or intent?
and on your way
back to heaven in a physical body that does not die.
DAVEH: ??? Do you
mean you do not believe we will gain a resurrected body after our death?
I thought the resurrection is a commonly accepted principle amongst most
Christians. Perhaps I'm not understanding you on this, Judy.......Do
you believe you will exist just as a spirit after you die, and not receive
a resurrected body?
Scripture
is speaking about gods (judges) who stand in for the one God on this earth
- so you see this is twisted.
DAVEH: IF that were a valid explanation
for Ps 82:6, then it would not have benefited Jesus to use that passage
in defense of his accusers claiming he is God. So, claiming "gods"
equates to "judges" removes the divine nature that Jesus used in his defense.
Does that make sense to you, Judy?
DAVEH: If you
disagree (and I'm pretty sure you do), I'd sure like to know why you think
my analysis is wrong. To me (from my LDS biased perspective), it
all makes logical sense. I don't understand why Protestants find
it so hard to accept the basic message of the Bible as I've tried to explain
above. jt: Probably because what is logical sense to you
makes no spiritual sense to those of us who have been born of the Spirit
and understand the scriptures in this light.
DAVEH: I would suggest that many
Christians blindly (and I don't mean to use that term in a pejorative sense).
Due to dogma adhered to for many centuries, many doctrines and beliefs
are simply accepted without considering contrasting possibilities.
I think you understand Scripture in light of what is commonly taught in
Protestantism.
Not that we all agree on every detail as you've
probably noted from being on TT
DAVEH: Yes.....I've noted some
major differences. I think your belief (assuming I understood you
correctly) that you will not have a physical resurrected body of flesh
and bones after you leave mortality is one major difference.
for so long; we are all at different places but the
differences are not that great and the Lord will bring it all together
before His return. Judy
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
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