[TruthTalk] Another Jesus and a different spirit ...

[jandgtaylor1]

***DAVEH:  My latest post has ***............ Judy Taylor wrote: Not so DaveH, the sealed book spoken of by the prophet Isaiah in Is 29:11-18 is the Scripture. DAVEH:  Agreed.  The question is......which Scripture?  I believe it applies to the BoM, which I believe is Scripture too.  Now.....when you suggest it is "Scripture", I assume you mean that you think it refers to the Bible?  How so?  Was the Bible sealed?  Who and when was the Bible delivered to a learned man who said, "I cannot; for it is sealed"?  And who was it delivered to that said he was unlearned? jt: So far as I am concerned (respectfully so) the book of Mormon is extra biblical and does not qualify as being scripture. ***DAVEH:  I agree. - the book had already been written - and does not qualify as scripture... ***DAVEH:  I respectfully disagree.  Do you have a specific reason why it does not qualify as scripture, or are you just assuming such? jt: I am believing God's Word which says "To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to THIS WORD it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20 KJV)..and yes the Bible is a sealed book, right now today to a lot of people. DAVEH:  I respectfully disagree with your assessment.  As I see it, in no way has the Bible been sealed.  People may misunderstand it, but that does not in itself make it sealed. jt: Why does your print keep getting bigger and bigger DaveH - is it necessary to overemphasize your words - do you view them as more important than mine or do you have a humvee mentality?? ***DAVEH:   LOL.......No, Judy.  I use very old software that does not plainly distinguish between all the posts on these threads that contain numerous replies.  Your replies are very difficult for me to discern, because they get buried with previous hard to separate replies.  So, I've tried to make my posts distinctive each time so I can quickly sort out my most recent comments.  Then I look just beyond them for your replies.  I suspect I sometimes overlook your comments though, because there is not much that differentiates them from the old material. jt: I'm not surprised that they are hard to find because in the light of your gigantic print they are miniscule, probably the way you receive them. It is becoming more and more obvious to me that I am wasting my time because you are full of your own thoughts and anything other is only fodder for the war you are in against the Truth.  However, you will not prevail, you need to question some of your own assumptions because it is God who sits on the throne and He WILL have the last Word.... Without the Holy Spirit unlocking the meaning and giving spiritual understanding the Bible it is a closed volume. ***DAVEH:  OK......Now I understand where you are coming from. jt: People can speculate about it and write big thick books that bring them no closer to the Truth than they were before they began.  God wants to perform a work of grace in the heart without which noone is able to see him or to know him because he hides things from the wise and prudent and reveals them to babes - also no prophecy of scripture is interpreted independently it must fit with the rest of scripture and there should be two or more clear witnesses in the rest of the Bible. DAVEH:  IMHO, the BofM is a second witness of the Bible. jt: You've got to be kidding. The witnesses must be in agreement whereas the Book of Mormon is completely other and teaches things never heard of in Israel. Actually it qualifies as a false prophet which God allows in order to test his people to see if their hearts are fully his.  No wonder you don't like this idea. ***DAVEH:  No I'm not kidding, Judy.  If you do little else, you might take out your copy of the BofM and read the title page.  It is only 2 paragraphs long, and probably won't cause you to loose your salvation.....   :-) jt: I'm not concerned about 'losing my salvation' DaveH but how would it benefit me to read the title page of a counterfeit book?  ***DAVEH:  IMHO, the BofM does speak according to God's word. jt: One could only say this if they did not understand God's Word to begin with. Isaiah 29:11 is speaking of Israel's restoration in the Messianic Age and there are many corresponding scriptures Isa 35:3-6 is one. ***DAVEH:  Like I said before, I take Isaiah's comments about the sealed book far more literally than you do. jt: I take it literally also but not to the point of accepting what God has rejected.  DAVEH:  I obviously believe the 'Mormon sheep' are hearing his voice (from both Biblical and extra Biblical) sources and are seeking to follow the Shepherd.  ht: If the Mormon sheep are following the voice of Joseph Smith then they are not seeking to follow the One True Shepherd.  ***DAVEH:  I'm not here to force you to do anything your conscience opposes.  Let the Holy Spirit be your guide.  Since you are relatively new to TT, let me take a moment and explain to you why I am here.  I am very curious (due to my LDS biases) what Protestants believe, and why they believe the way they do.  And, I also try to answer questions of those who want to know what I believe, and why I believe it.  Furthermore, I sometimes feel compelled to correct errors and misunderstandings people may have about LDS theology, as best I can with the knowledge I have.  Despite what some may think, I'm not here to try to convert you to Mormonism.  (Though it wouldn't hurt my feelings if you did!----VBG) jt: Jesus has given us a comforter who also leads us into all truth so we are not dependent upon anybody's extra biblical revelation. ***DAVEH:  I think you would agree that it is better to have more of God's words than less.  Consider how important it is to have the entire Bible, rather than one with fewer than the 66 books now included.   IMO, with or without the HS, it is better to have more than less of the Lord's revealed gospel. jt: Definitely not - there are many voices out there.  Discernment is to separate the holy from the profane, and in the multitude of words there wanteth not sin. I am more concerned with the origin of the words.      dh: He is known to us by his parental name, "Father".  He has given us the tools to come like him.....the commandments.  He has give us a commandment to do so.  (Mt 5:48)    Furthermore, he has told us that we shall be like him.  (1Jn 3:2)   jt: Dave you need to be born of the Spirit so that you can understand the scriptures.  You have them all mixed up here. ***DAVEH:  You didn't explain how I've mixed them up, so I don't know how to respond to your comment with which I respectfully disagree.   jt: You are not going to be like Him (that is Father or Son) without being born of the spirit. Your old flesh nature that you are trying to reform by following commandments is condemned and can never be resuscitated or brought back to life... for a start. This is the clear teaching of scripture.  God is only Father to those who are in His son; he does not claim devils and rebels. ***DAVEH:  I assume you do believe he created the devils....?   I believe our Heavenly Father is our creator of our spirits (including Lucifer's), and in that sense we are all brothers who share common roots.    jt: Oh well, I guess you will receive Lucifer's reward then but those of us who are 'in Christ" are part of a new creation and this is the Church Jesus will return to claim.   ***That doesn't mean that some of us don't go astray as did the prodigal son.  There is also a step of brotherhood beyond our common divine origin, and that is the Christian bond of those who endeavor to follow Christ.  In that phase of our 'brotherhood', we put aside our weakness and in humility try to become one with God.   jt: It will never happen DaveH - You can try till the cows come home.  You must be Born Again. DAVEH:  Do you allow that he created them? jt: When he created them they were good. ***DAVEH:  Ahhhhhhh......but when he did so, he knew they would become bad, did he not?  That leads us full circle back to the question of why God creates something he knows will try to thwart his gospel plan.    jt: DaveH you need to stop trying to be smarter than God and just believe what He says or you will be "ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of Truth"   ***DAVEH:  My background (bias) is certainly vastly different than that of Protestantism, so I have a tendency not to be dragged along by Protestant dogma and traditional beliefs rooted in Catholicism.  As blinded by LDS theology as you might perceive, I feel likewise about many TTers who choose not to look beyond their traditional religious upbringing.   jt: I hear you DaveH but I for one was raised with no 'traditional religious upbringing' or dogma. ***For example......When somebody suggests the thief was saved because Jesus said he was going to paradise, I find it very interesting that not only has it never occurred to Protestants that paradise may not equate with heaven, but so far I have not been able to get any TTers to either explain why my explanation is in error, or offer an alternative based on what the Bible actually says about the details.  (BTW......For any TTers who are following this, do any of you know of a book or web site that deals with this apparent discrepancy?) jt: I don't believe there is a 'discrepancy' DaveH. It is good that you gave it some thought and figured out that there was a time lapse but it makes no difference to what we were discussing because the thief in fact did go that day to Paradise, was there with Jesus while there bodies were interred elsewhere and then went on to heaven later with Jesus and the people he had preched to who were the 'righteous' dead held in Abraham's bosom.  Now we know he was not baptised because he had no body in Paradise to baptise and no need to identify with the DBR of Christ since he was already dead himself. ***So......from your perspective I'm sure I sound like somebody possessed.  But.....from my perspective, your perception that "something isn't right about it" to me means that the 'something not right' is on your side of the fence, since it all seems right on my side of the fence. jt: Whatever DaveH, I respect your right to an opinion of your own. jt: The Bible doesn't support the belief that you are gods (plural) or that any man is god. DAVEH:  I quoted Jesus who pointed out the Psalmist suggested just that to his detractors.  If you don't believe me, I understand.  Why you don't believe our Lord, I don't understand.  Do you think I've twisted his words or intent? jt: Yes I think you have done both because my Lord was not speaking in this context. The same word that is in John and Psalm 82 is in Exodus 7:1. But then your Jesus may have been saying just that. ***DAVEH:  Elohim is the word used in the latter two passages, which is a plural form of an object of worship.  The former (used in Jn 10:34) is theos, which is also an object of worship that refers to elohim used in Ps 82:6.   jt:  Do you believe Moses was also God? Does this word Elohim apply to Moses also?   ***DAVEH:  Not only does the usage of the word elohim in this passage suggest such, it is in the same sense as elohim is used in many other OT passages, including Gen 1:1..... "In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth." ........so Judy, yes....that is what the Bible indicates.  Interestingly, it is also in accordance with LDS theology.  (IOW......Yes, as strange as this may seem to you, Judy......I do believe Moses was foreordained as a God.) jt: Then you have your God judging God because Moses was not permitted to go into the Promised Land in that he failed to sanctify God before the people when in anger and disobedience he struck the rock instead of speaking to it.  Whereas my God is different, He is not divided and He is transcendent. Judy and on your way back to heaven in a physical body that does not die. DAVEH:  ???   Do you mean you do not believe we will gain a resurrected body after our death?  I thought the resurrection is a commonly accepted principle amongst most Christians.  Perhaps I'm not understanding you on this, Judy.......Do you believe you will exist just as a spirit after you die, and not receive a resurrected body? jt: No, I do believe those who are redeemed in the last resurrection will receive a transformed body but they will always be creatures and never the Creator.  Scripture is speaking about gods (judges) who stand in for the one God on this earth - so you see this is twisted. DAVEH:  IF that were a valid explanation for Ps 82:6, then it would not have benefited Jesus to use that passage in defense of his accusers claiming he is God.  So, claiming "gods" equates to "judges" removes the divine nature that Jesus used in his defense.  Does that make sense to you, Judy? jt: Yes it does because Jesus layed aside the glory he had with the father (his divinity) when he took on a body of flesh and during his earthly ministry he became as one of us, a man, walking in a 'full measure' of the Holy Spirit. ***DAVEH:  ???   You're losing me on that, Judy.  Do you mean to say Jesus was not God while clothed in a physical body on this earth? DAVEH: If you disagree (and I'm pretty sure you do), I'd sure like to know why you think my analysis is wrong.  To me (from my LDS biased perspective), it all makes logical sense.  I don't understand why Protestants find it so hard to accept the basic message of the Bible as I've tried to explain above. jt: Probably because what is logical sense to you makes no spiritual sense to those of us who have been born of the Spirit and understand the scriptures in this light. ***DAVEH:  I don't want to offend you, Judy.....but it seems as if you are saying you don't have a logical explanation.  In that sense, does it seem to be a mystery to you?   DAVEH:  I would suggest that many Christians blindly (and I don't mean to use that term in a pejorative sense).  Due to dogma adhered to for many centuries, many doctrines and beliefs are simply accepted without considering contrasting possibilities.  I think you understand Scripture in light of what is commonly taught in Protestantism. jt: Are Mormons any less blind - following the revelations of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young etc? ***DAVEH:  Sometimes some of us (LDS) are blinded in that sense.  A lot of folks simply take it on faith and don't worry about the details.  I guess I'm a little screwy in that sense......I like to know some of the details.  (Though not necessarily all of them.....some things simply don't interest me in a theological sense.)  But I am not led by men's dogma, I have the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth.  The RCC have dogma because their ppl are not permitted to interpret scripture for themselves. ***DAVEH:  That is a good point about the RCC.  I have a good friend who grew up in a convent who says much the same thing. OTOH I believe that Jesus has made me free and am not about to go back to any yoke of bondage. ***DAVEH:  I've heard that from other TTers (notably Brother Glenn), and have always been amused by it.  Sounds like one of my relatives who thought freedom means no rules to follow.  He is now addicted to heroine. Not that we all agree on every detail as you've probably noted from being on TT DAVEH: Yes.....I've noted some major differences.  I think your belief (assuming I understood you correctly) that you will not have a physical resurrected body of flesh and bones after you leave mortality is one major difference.  jt: This is not a difference on my part - We've been discussing baptism and even that is not a major difference really - it turned into different ways of saying the same thing. We are at different places but the differences are not that great because the Spirit is the same and the Lord will bring it all together before His return.  Mormonism OTOH is entirely different.  You have another gospel, ***DAVEH:  I believe it is a fulness of the restored gospel that seems different to you. a different Jesus, ***DAVEH:  I don't recall discussing that with you, other than to say the Jesus in which I proffer my faith atoned for my (our) sins, died on the cross and was resurrected with a body of flesh and bones. along with a different spirit. Judy ***DAVEH:  I do hope you find it not to be a spirit of dissension..... -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.