Re: [TruthTalk] What is sin?

Wed, 20 Oct 2004 11:23:43 -0700

 
 
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 13:45:21 -0400 "Hughes Jonathan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Judith, You are correct in that we need to remember balance and context.  Let me lay it out for you.  Jeff was the one who quoted John 1.1 and set up the direct comparison of Jesus = Torah.
 
Jeff:  "In the beginninjg was the WORD,, and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God."    The WORD my friend is BOTH Yeshua and TORAH. To obey Messiah completely is to be obedient to the Torah of God! NOW, THAT IS THE BIBLICAL VIEW!!  
 
Judyt: No Jonathan, Jeff said exactly what he wrote above. You are the one who tried to divide by saying that one is a person and the other Logos.  When Jeff uses the word Torah I know what he means, no need to strain at a gnat here. 
 
Ummm sometimes I feel that you are being obstinate on purpose. 
 
jt: Why would you think that? I am just very sure of what I believe about some things. We believe differently and one of us is wrong.
 
Jonathan: There is Jesus and there is Torah.  They are not equivalents, nor are they the same.  We cannot insert one in for the other.  Jeff wrote that they are the same in the context of John 1.1 .  
 
jt: I believe they are one and the same.  Jesus is the Word of God and what Jeff refers to as Torah is the Word of God.
 
Jonathan: You are all for defending the Bible but I have yet to see you defend Christ Himself.  If you do not see the disconnect here.... You often accuse others of wanting to change the Bible.  Here you are agreeing with a major change!  
 
jt: I don't know of a Jesus apart from His Word.  His sheep hear his voice... God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him... He and the Father are one. He says if you have seen him you have seen the Father while ATST noone has yet seen the Father and lived.  These are not contradictions. You keep talking about some Christ for which I have no frame of reference.  How do you define your Christ?

You then defended his interpretation.

Judyt: I agreed with what Jeff wrote in this instance which is that John 1:1 speaks of Jesus and Jesus of Nazareth is also the Word of God. What Jeff calls Torah is also the Word of God - so what's your problem? 

My problem is that what Jeff calls Torah is not Jesus Christ.  You like to claim that I have a false Jesus.  If you were consistent you would be all over Jeff on this one.  Jeff is redefining Jesus based upon his culture; it is extremely important for Messianic Jews to equate Torah with Jesus.  It is self-affirming.  it is also completely wrong.  Capitalize Torah all you want - it will never be a Person, it will never be God Himself.  It will never be anything but a pointer to Jesus.

Judyt: Hey calm down. I don't use the word Torah myself, that's Jeff and Slade's thing. However what they call Torah (the writings of Moses) are the Word of God.  Jesus of Nazareth is also the Word of God who came in the flesh.

Jonathan:  I would suggest that defining Logos as Torah would be incorrect. 
 
jt: Why? The Word of God is the Word of God, given by inspiration of God (by the Holy Spirit) and no word of prophecy is for private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20,21)

Now that you have been proven wrong beyond a shadow of doubt that Torah (law) does not equal Logos (Person of Jesus Christ) you hedge your bets and say that using John 1.1 to illustrate this makes no sense at all.  Doubleminded Judy. Jonathan Hughes

Judyt: There's that old "accuser" again - he's never far away, huh Jonathan? 

Would it be useless to point out that you are accusing me of being an accuser?  Of course.  The point is you have no idea what you are talking about now.  You flipflop more than George Bush on a good day :) You have Jesus as the Word, the Bible as the Word and now prophecy as the Word.  There is only one Jesus Christ. 

Judyt: Yes there is just one.  Look at him "Then I saw heaven opened and behold a white horse. And he who sat on him was called "Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire and on his head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood and his name was called THE WORD OF GOD"  If you are making the claim that the writings of Moses are not God's Word Jonathan, then you will need to prove it by showing me in scripture how this is not iso n two or more places using something other than Greek words.
 



John, last time I checked it was the Holy Spirit who reveals God's Word, it's not Greek logic even though
God always makes sense.  Do you find the word Torah anywhere in your Bible?  It's not in my KJV, nor
is it in my Strongs Concordance.  I understand it to be a word that comes from Jewish tradition which is
fine.  When Slade and Jeff use it I know what they are talking about.  However insisting on this kind of
a test using John 1:1 makes no sense at all.  We need to remember balance and context...
 
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 10:03:44 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In a message dated 10/19/2004 11:36:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

We could not rephrase John 1.1 as “In the beginning was Torah, and Torah was with God and Torah was God.”
 
jt: Why would we want to when scripture clearly says "Word" but as Jeff and Slade both claim Jesus is the Word of God and Torah is The Word of God, so what's the problem?
 



Judy  -- no logic here at all. If the two words refer to the same circumstance, they would be interchangeable and they are clearly are not in the Jo 1:1. 

JD
 

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