John wrote:
>You seem to like the idea of a harsh God.
Not exactly. It makes me tremble to think of how harsh he is. How is he able to create a hell and execute judgment the way he does? I am far from being able to do anything like that.
A discussion for another day.
John wrote:
>One is not a "passive participant" because he
>violates accepted norms set by society.
That was my point. Society accepts the passive participant, but God does not. It is a harsh reality taught in Scripture.
You either forgot or did not read my post. I was saying that your example is one of active participation only. Passive participation is the receiving of life, the aging process, genetics and their influence, much of our early childhood education. much of our bias/prejudice and so on. This is important, to me, at least, in a discussion of the unilateral covenant. But I am not the one to defend the point (although I will give it a shot, if needs be). I beleive Bill is giving this some thought. Hope so. It's just that if it is God within us to will and work, how could the covenant not be unilateral to an amazing degree? I see that this point comes into play latter in this post -- perhaps you have not written clearly what you intend to say here -- could be that I missed the point.
Suppose a man is a coward. Suppose he is just flat out afraid to do anything. A timid man. Society has pity on him. God casts him into hell. What a contrast! Anything that does not bear fruit, God casts into hell. It is a terrible and sobering thought found in Scripture.
And where does grace and the continual flow of the blood figure in with your gospel.
John wrote:
>You and I are passive participants, as I see it, in that life
>comes to us through no effort of our own; our bodies survive
>because, in part, of certain involuntary responses; age happens;
>our very personalities and many of our emotional and intellectual
>concerns are gifts to us; our (read "my") ravishing good looks
>are not indebted to personal effort; whether I am white, black,
>yellow or whatever is of no personal effort ----------- in fact, I
>could argue effectively that everything I am as a cultural being
>is ultimately the result of influences not the result of personal
>effort.
Good points about those aspects of our lives that are passively attained. If I understand Scripture correctly, if we leave it at that, we will be cast into hell fire.
The parallel here is the fact that spiritual life, salvation, redemption, sanctification, justification, righteousness are given to us apart from our effort (read "obedience"). Because we have been redeemed, we act. Because he first loved us, we love Him.
Remember the parable of the talents in Mat. 25? The one who did not produce
something extra for his master, the one who was afraid and buried his talents so he could give it back to his master when he returned, what happened to him? He was cast into outer darkness. What kind of God is this?
If I remember this correctly, the single talent individual was censored because he made a choice. He had been called to be a steward for his Master. Each man knew their Lord very well. Each was already accepted by him. The single talent steward made a choice TO DO NOTHING for the Master. Does that mean that he did nothing? Of course not. He functioned for himself or in some way counter to his Master. His "position " as a steward was his to loose !! He buried the money, went off and did his own thing -- always a disaster -- and came to the returning Lord with nothing but words. What kind of God is it who ultimately hands over to destruction those who have lived a life of destruction? Fair and balanced.
John wrote:
>So it is with the covenant. Gal 3:16 tells us that the
>covenant promise was given to Abraham and his seed,
>Jesus Christ. Christ has made it possible for God to view
>the heart of man, his intentions, his desire to live for others
>and be found in participation with the Communal God.
>So Abraham is "saved" in spite of his lack of faith (i.e.
>the circumstances involving his wife) and Samson is "saved"
>in spite of his continued lust and a vengeful attitude that
>resulted in his death. Did they participate? Of course.
>Did this participation result in their sanctification. Absolutely
>not. As high as we can jump -- we will never look anything
>but silly when measured against how high we MUST go to find
>ourselves in the heavenly place (think allegory). Our activity is
>dwarfted by the benefits of God's promises as we stand ourside
>our tent, left with nothing to do but count the stars and say,
>Praise the Lord.
Abraham's lack of faith? Abraham is the father of faith. I would be so afraid to say anything like you just said.
Abraham was willing to have his wife sleep with men of power, on two different occasions to protect himself. Faith in God? Hardly.
Some of the other things you say are good, but you also seem to be missing some important matters in Scripture.
Kind of like saying my bodily temperature is 98.6. We all miss important matters in scripture, David.
I'm not going to list them right now because you don't like long posts.
Ah, yes. Thanks.
