Jonathan writes:
The
Trinity is the relationship as
one of the Father, Son and Spirit eternally. It is who God is.
jt: God calls Himself by many titles in
scripture, Elohim is only one of them.
JBH: I would suggest moving away
from titles to who God is inherently in His own Being. Titles are
important but only as one understands the Person behind the title. For
example, I work as a business analyst. My title is Supervisor of
Application Support. Does this describe who I am inherently in my
being? No, it describes a role that I play. It is the same thing
with God. Begin with who He has declared Himself to be: Father, Son and
Spirit. Then move onto titles that are grounded in His Being.
To deny the eternal sonship of the Son is
to deny the Trinity existing eternally. It means there is no Father, and
no Son prior to the incarnation with no Spirit mediating between them
both.
jt: It doesn't mean that at all Jonathan
and where would one get the idea that the Holy Spirit mediates between Father
and Son? Mediation is only necessary where there is a breach.
The Godhead is One. Remember Tertullian didn't come up with this trinity
idea until the 3rd century and the "eternal Sonship" thing began
with Athanasius at Nicaea in the 4th Century so I guess the apostles were
without this Trinity, Father, Son .. revelation though they turned the
whole world upside down by their teaching. From what I can gather by the time
these theologians took the reins things had degenerated so far into politics
and infighting that I personally would not receive their words on the
same level as scripture and when there is a conflict [which there is
constinually I choose to stick with God's Word rather than the words of men] .
JBH: You
are understanding mediation in a very limited form. I am using it to
describe the One who comes alongside, the ‘in’ the Spirit.
The early Church Fathers didn’t come up with the Trinity idea. It
was forced upon them as they read the scriptures. It was God revealing
Himself to them in order that they may apprehend Him more fully. It
became the identity of the Church catholic. It is the one aspect of the
Christian faith that separates it from all others. Lots of faith’s
have God becoming man and dying (some even rising again!). Only
Christianity has the Trinity. I would suggest that you begin to read more
than one source on the Church Fathers.
To speak of it in a different fashion than
Father, Son and Spirit is to speak of a different Trinity, one not associated
with historic, orthodox Christianity.
jt: When Historic, orthodox Christianity
changes or contradicts the clear teaching of God's Word it becomes sinking
sand. The Godhead described in scripture is not always Father, Son, and Spirit.
Sometimes it is Father, Logos, and Spirit or Father, Word, and Spirit.
JBH:
The historic orthodox view of the Trinity is Father, Son and Spirit. Now
just because you lump three words together (whether they be Father, Word,
Spirit or Mother, Logos, Sophia etc.) does not make it the orthodox view of the
Trinity. It does make it a conflicting view. The Godhead affirmed
by the Church catholic is Father, Son and Spirit. This is fact. You
may disagree with it but it is fact nonetheless. You are outside of what
the Church as proclaimed as the deposit of faith from the apostles.
What would be opinion would be any
viewpoint that disagrees with the historic orthodox view of the Trinity. If you believe in
the Trinity, and you have given no evidence that you
do, then you would affirm the eternal sonship of Christ. Jonathan
jt: My faith is in the Lord Jesus Christ
Jonathan and the words I follow are His. His sheep hear His Voice and another
voice they do not follow. I don't hear his voice through Tertullian or through
Athanasius. They were from another generation entirely and they will
stand or fall before the Lord.
JBH: Your faith may be in the Lord
Jesus Christ but it appears that you really don’t know who He is as God.
You have never read Tertullian of Athanasius to any degree that would allow you
to say that you don’t hear the Shepherd’s voice through them.
All you have read is secondary source material. Try Athanasius’ ‘On
the Incarnation’. Small book introduced with a wonderful essay by
C.S. Lewis. Your entire Christian faith is based upon what these godly men
hammered out in the first few centuries. There is nothing new under the
sun. Please give me the phone number to the church you attend. I
would like to get a copy of their statement of faith. If they have a
website that would make it easier but I don’t mind calling them.
