"Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
I usually don't reply like this, but Henning did such a great job explaining himself, that I just must quote his message and echo that these are my sentiments also.
Ah, yes, Henning's "you're such a bad guy" diatribe. I said at the end of my last note that people were bound to engage in more of this. It's to be expected. I say certain negative things about this community, so you come out with this. Of course, it does have one sad aspect. I mean, it's like you're too lame to write your own "you're such a bad guy" diatribe, so you copy-paste Henning's. :-) A bit like Rush Limbaugh and the "ditto-heads" -- people who are too lame to come up with their own looney right-wing diatribe, so they just listen to Rush's diatribe and scream "Ditto!".
Of course, the stuff about what bad guy I am is completely irrelevant. The comments I made in my last note were good-faithed and truthful. There are some real issues in terms of the culture here. One aspect of this that I didn't emphasize much is the complete lack of what I would call graciousness here. Or appreciativeness.
FreeMarker is specifically designed as a component for the View layer of an MVC web app. The existence of that project provides key technology for Turbine and projects similar to Turbine. You can leverage that technology or not, but it actually does make sense to be somewhat appreciative towards the people who made that option available. There is a lot of hard work in there, you know.
This whole subtext, where you'd be doing us a favor by using our work, is really quite something. You and Henning and others do not have a sense of just how ill-bred and obnoxious you come across to me. I think this utter lack of graciousness is a key aspect to it.
Now, all of the above is non-technical in nature. What also gets me about about all of this is that I recently looked at the various turbine docs and everything, and I get the feeling of something that is very complex and possibly overabstracted -- the XXX service, the YYY service, and so on.
Yet, for all of the layers of abstraction, to support multiple template engines on an equal footing apparently requires some significant refactoring of the code. Isn't there something rather strange about this?
I mean, what's the point of having such a highly abstracted framework then? I don't have the time or energy to investigate this too closely, but it makes me wonder whether the emperor is just wearing no clothes. Maybe that is why there is some amount of defensiveness about the whole topic.
Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Tell me the truth. Wouldn't it piss you off to have somebody lay this load of bullshit on you?
[...]
is probably about as useful as tits on a nun. But it makes for a good buzzword to add to your feature list...
[...]
I will stop talking to you now. I really have enough.
It doesn't seem to be possible to discuss technical facts without getting either dragged into some long and winded metaphorical discussion behind which you always see a cabal. You style of putting personal accusations and dismissing every technical explanation as "blatant", "I always knew that" and "I'm not interested in that" while simply not listening to facts, is to me both confusing and revolting.
If you want to discuss technical things, come over to -dev. If you want to help us integrating FM in a clean and turbine-like way, come over to -dev. If you don't want to help us, please stay away.
If you want to do ASF bashing, Velocity bashing or just continue to actively drive people that once were neutral to FM away, please go somewhere else.
But sorry, I honestly tried to describe you the situation as it was when I came to Turbine 18 months ago. I don't have "3+ years of experience with Turbine" as you claim.
To me, you come over as a mischief-maker which tries to promote his own project/product not by talking about its merits but by putting other projects down. This isn't exactly the style and spirit that I consider helpful for developing open source. I have better things to do than getting into a pissing match with you.
If you have any FM-specific issues, we have mailing lists and we'll be quite helpful if you ask any questions there.
After your posing here and on velocity-user I have serious trouble to believe that. But if the need crops out, I might try this out. ATM I'm pretty sure that with your obnoxious and demanding style you drove most readers of this mailing list as far away from FM as possible. At least you achieved this with me. You can be proud on this and laugh long and hard now.
Regards Henning -- Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH [EMAIL PROTECTED] +49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
Java, perl, Solaris, Linux, xSP Consulting, Web Services freelance consultant -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire
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