> My experience has been that there is no single data point that can be > used to determine if someone is a good fit. People are complex and > come with a package of pros and cons, as such many data points are > needed to evaluate a fit.
And this is the crux of the matter and sometimes why I get hung up when people talk about degrees. Yes, generally speaking they have positive effects. However, things being as complicated as they are I can't help but feel that there are some (not meaning to allude to anyone here, just using a generalization) who still cling to an old idea that "degrees are good. always.". But perhaps I should have prefaced my response with the fact that I am increasingly seeing that the current trends in schools that are not geared to what I feel is most effective at teaching and so my personal feelings have come out. As we all know, my personal feelings justify my superiority in every case and anyone who disputes such facts are wrong. On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Joseph Scott <[email protected]>wrote: > All reply to these inline - > > > On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 6:11 AM, Brian J. Rogers <[email protected]> > wrote: > > I have to admit I find it odd that a consensus is "We like to assign > value > > to a degree but we understand it could be absolutely worthless. Even in a > > good school, it could be that this candidate learned nothing, yet we will > > still determine the hiring pool based on this." > > > A few notes on this. Any one single data point could turn out to be > "absolutely worthless". That is something that trips up even the best > of us. For instance seeing big names like Google, Amazon, Facebook, > Microsoft, etc. on a work history can easily fool people into > believing this person must be good to have worked at one of those > places. But that is just a single data point and we've had times > where it was a worthless indicator ( and times when it wasn't ) of how > good a fit a person really is for our particular environment. > > I don't think I implied that we base an entire hiring process on that. > The closest I got to that was indicating that all other things being > equal between two devs, the one with the degree has at least a small > leg up, and possibly a great deal more. But my last paragraph didn't > mention a degree at all. > > > > > I hope I don't offend anyone, but if it is shown that it is such a crap > > shoot, why depend on it much if at all? I agree being able to see > something > > through is extremely important, but if they didn't learn anything from > the > > experience of being in class is simply being there important to you? If > they > > didn't learn anything, it means they went through the motions for 4+ > years > > and spent a lot of money that was absolutely wasted. Do you really want > > someone like that on their team? > > > My experience has been that there is no single data point that can be > used to determine if someone is a good fit. People are complex and > come with a package of pros and cons, as such many data points are > needed to evaluate a fit. > > > > I can see that it may not be the person's fault. They may have really > tried > > and gave 110% every day at a bad school, but that only supports my idea > that > > the school isn't the point, the person's attitude is. So for you hiring > > managers out there who have admitted to school not always being worth > > anything and it largely depending on the person, why hold on to a > paradigm > > that schools are worth much at all? > > > Something that was brought up previously was that the more years since > the person finished a degree, the less important it tends to be. The > reason being that more recent experience is more helpful in > determining a fit. > > One of the best devs I've worked with was working on a PhD in quantum > computing at the time ( something he eventually decided not to > complete it in order to focus on work instead ). But I've also worked > with devs with PhD's who were mediocre-to-ok dev wise, but were not > great to work with and ultimately ended up not staying at the job very > long. The degree the person held is just one attribute about them. > > Another amazing dev I've worked with never finished a degree, I'm not > even sure he ever finished much of college. > > Don't get hung up on trying to find one single data point that can be > used to determine the perfect hire. No such data point exists. > School and a degree is just one data point. > > The flip side is to not ignore non-pefect data points either, just > recognize them for what they are. > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 5:39 PM, Joseph Scott <[email protected]> > > wrote: > >> > >> On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 5:08 PM, Justin Carmony > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > It also demonstrates the ability to work on something & finish it > >> > >> > >> I used almost that exact phrase to someone many years ago when > >> discussing the value of a degree. You may have learned absolutely > >> nothing about your field in the years it took you to get a degree, but > >> it does show that you were able to stick with it long enough and > >> navigate the various hurdles to get the thing done. Think of it as > >> the minimal possible value. All other things being equal someone with > >> a degree was that going for them. > >> > >> Of course when comparing candidates for a job things are not usually > >> equal. > >> > >> While I generally try to avoid being on the hiring team, I have > >> developed a fairly good idea of what makes for good/great devs at the > >> company I work for, at least from my point of view. Most of it echoes > >> what has already been said ( experience, curiosity, passion, ability > >> to learn, willing to dive in and try things, etc. ). > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Joseph Scott > >> [email protected] > >> http://josephscott.org/ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > >> UPHPU mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu > >> IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net > > > > > > > > -- > Joseph Scott > [email protected] > http://josephscott.org/ > _______________________________________________ UPHPU mailing list [email protected] http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
