Hello everyone,
I know that I have not yet offered much scripting help etc. to others
on this list since I do not feel I know Revolution well enough yet to
offer good suggestions, but I would like to comment on a few things
that I have seen posted on this list recently in several threads. I
have attempted to attribute list posted comments correctly and I
apologize in advance if I have made any errors. I also apologize in
advance if anyone believes their comments are being incorrectly taken
out of context.
Thomas McGrath III Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:26:14 -0400: I do mind about how
Rev progresses and grows and I for one don't want it influenced by
these other languages or programs at all.
Michael Young (MY): I thought cross pollination of programs, languages,
etc. is intended to advance the computer/technology/etc. state of the
art. Granted sometimes people try to combine technologies and ideas
that do not "belong" together, but I do not see anything wrong with the
effort.
Judy Perry Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:25:48 -0700 (PDT): No DOT NOTATION!!!!!
It SUX... It's hard.to.read.this:total.utter:crap!
MY: I personally find the dot notation easy to read and sometimes even
find it easier to read than x-talk syntax that I am still learning. By
your acting as self appointed defender of the x-talk/Revolution faith,
I personally did not find your SHOUTING to be very
professional/pleasant/etc.
Scott Kane Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:47:55 +1000: I guarantee if people using
Rev went to the Borland newsgroups and demanded x-code there's be a
whole bunch of laughter - and so it should be with others coming to
Rev.
MY: Very true. The current Revolution list does not seem to be a
productive place to request language syntax, etc. changes. In the last
few years I have followed this Revolution list such requests seem to be
regularly put down by old x-talk hands. May be posters should be
directed to a more appropriate list for such discussions, presuming one
exists.
Richard Gaskin Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:53:49 -0700: A lot of people from a
wide range of programming backgrounds have learned Rev easily with the
help of the folks here.
MY: Very true, however I find that the old x-talk hands on this list
expect all new Rev users to be programming neophytes. "Dan [Shafer]
coined the term "Inventive User" to describe people who use programs
like Revolution to create solutions to their own problems without
necessarily becoming professional programmers in the process." (
http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit/RevConWest/Sponsors.htm ) The problem
is some new Revolution users are professional programmers and just as I
am sure that many list members would consider themselves professional
programmers. It is not appropriate for old x-talk hands to expect
professional programmers to forget all programming
techniques/environments/languages/etc they have learned, just as it is
not appropriate for professional programmers new to Revolution to
expect language syntax changes to be the only thing that changes when
they move to Revolution and they even want to use their old language
syntax in Revolution.
Scott Kane Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:20:09 +1000: The Rev community (the
developers using Rev) don't take them selves as seriously as other
languages - by that I mean they aren't jumping on newbie's and telling
them to RTFM. Common with Delphi, C++, Visual Basic etc.
MY: Very true. I have been following
[EMAIL PROTECTED] in the last few weeks.
That list is very rough and tumble compared with this Revolution list.
Bob Warren Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:30:07 -0300: I like it [x-talk or Rev, I
am not quite sure what "it" is] too. In fact, I think that Rev has so
much in its favour - its philosophy, the Transcript language, even the
IDE and (yes!) the script editor - that I feel outraged that anyone can
treat it with so little respect that they continue to let it be riddled
with bugs. I have been involved with computers since the early 1960s,
so perhaps I am a little out of fashion in my attitude towards bugs. In
my time, they were things to be exterminated urgently. I never thought
of keeping them as pets, adoring them or even selling them!
MY: Yes. Revolution bugs need to go away. Bugs cause unexpected
behavior that will turn off potential new Revolution/Dreamcard
customers. Besides I have paid a lot of money for a product that I
expect to simply work.
Bob Warren Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:13:10 -0300: I share your indignation at
some of the scandalous generalizations that have been made on this
List, and I think it is a pity. But the other side of the coin is that
comparisons with other languages is, or should be, natural and normal,
and I see no good reason for creating taboos in this respect. A worse
situation would be if Revolution became a closed community, not
admitting "foreign" influences, criticisms, comparisons or suggestions.
We all know what madness this leads to.
MY: I agree completely.
Mark Smith Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:22:37 +0100: I don't think anyone has
really suggested that you shouldn't mind. But it's the nature of this
list for people to offer workarounds and show examples of how they deal
with things. For what it's worth, I agree that the script editor is
buggy in it's formatting, but not so much that you can't work.
MY: It bothers when a tool that costs a lot of money is buggy. I want
the toaster of software development -- just plug it in and it works. I
see no reason for me to need workarounds.
Jon Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:08:57 -0400: I'm slightly annoyed at the
auto-format feature (<tab> key), because it does not support my
particular and unconventional style, but I accept that. I'm much more
frustrated with what I see as the buggy way the auto-indent feature
works. It gets in the way more often than it helps, and I've seen
better UIs that do not get in the user's way. Perhaps we should
distinguish between the two features. I think that Bob and I are more
concerned about the auto-indent feature
MY: Good points especially regarding the distinguishing point.
Richard Gaskin Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:44:22 -0700: In its most basic form,
a Rev script editor is just a field in a stack. The field is loaded
with the script in response to the editScript message (trappable in a
frontScript if you want to get the message before the Rev editor does),
and the script is just a property saved to the object with the save
command ("set the script of <obj> to <script>"). It's not all that hard
to make a place to type if that's all you need. Or you can use
Constellation. Or BBEdit. Or the MC IDE. Or.....
MY: Is the information on how to swap out editors, capture editScript
message, and etc. obvious to someone new to programming or coming from
another programming environment? I could not find how to swap out the
editor in the Revolution application documentation by using "Search
for:" in Topics, Dictionary or Objects.
Jon Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:20:39 -0400: It sounds to me as if Tom, coming
from HC and SC, found some things to be "natural", while I, coming from
the UCSD Pascal P-System Advanced System Editor (pre-dates the IBM PC
entirely), and then, with lots of grumbling, Delphi, find it
not-so-natural. I've heard lots of defenders for the current editor,
and lots of people saying "don't change it", but I've not heard many
people with actual experience with both the VB and Delphi editors AND
Rev who come down on the side of the Rev editor. Maybe it's been said
and I've not noticed.
MY: I agree that old x-talk hands defend their editor but it is not
clear that they have ever used anything else, at least in a very long
time. The problem is, as I mentioned above, programmers new to
Revolution are expected to forget all programming
techniques/environments/languages/etc. they have learned and just
accept the Revolution way of doing things.
Mark Waddingham Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:01:51 +0100: I've been reading this
thread [Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor] this
morning and it does seem to have become somewhat of a 'holy war' which
I'm sure is not what anybody intended. <Clipped long helpful and mostly
well reasoned post.>
MY: I largely agree with this post to the extent that I considered not
posting this list submission that I had been working on.
Other points:
1. All Runtime Revolution owners, investors, contractors,
subcontractors, etc., i.e. anyone who financially benefits from the
sale of Runtime Revolution products, should somehow acknowledge it in
their list signature line, since not all new users to the list know who
is making money on the deal. For example, one unnamed poster does not
acknowledge in their signature line a Runtime Revolution affiliation
that is really quite important for others to know.
2. In reviewing this e-mail and the list postings that prompted me to
write it, I have become puzzled about who Runtime Revolution's target
audience is: "Inventive User" or professional programmer. I found it
interesting that it appears to be the professional programmers who have
been the most vocal about things they would like changed in Revolution,
which things by and large do make sense to me.
Sincerely,
Michael Young
Currently Inventive User of Runtime Revolution
_______________________________________________
use-revolution mailing list
use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
