That does not need an "Or was it". It can be for tools and other things. It clearly, however, is built to compete with the RAD deveolopment of tools. Indeed, the guy I preferred likes JSF because he sells tools.
On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I was not talking about you. I was talking about JSF. JSF is well > known > > for being for tools. Read your own citations. > > > > It is? Or was it just one goal among many others? > > > On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > I don't agree with you FacesServlet is a pure front controller, Faces > > > lacks an application controller on purpose but not a front controller. > > > It fits to the description in the blue prints and in Martin Fowler > > > book, the best reference on Enterprise applications patterns I know > > > of. Just tell me why you think it isn't? I will agree that JSf doesn't > > > have an application controller (this what Shale offer after all) but > > > it is totally front-controller oriented according to the definition. I > > > think you are confusing application controller and front controller > > > patterns, But since I disagree with you I don't get MVC and you are > > > not interested. Fallacies again Dakota... > > > > > > First, here's some reference about JSF being front controller oriented > > > (not by Craig since you always claim he has an hidden agenda, > > > something I found totally ridiculous): > > > > > > > > > > http://www.codeguru.com/csharp/.net/net_general/toolsand3rdparty/article.php/c11139/ > > > > > > > http://www.oracle.com/technology/tech/java/newsletter/articles/introjsf/index.html > > > http://websphere.sys-con.com/read/46516.htm > > > http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/wa-dsgnpatjsf.html > > > http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/GUI/JavaServerFaces/ > > > > > > > > > Oh yeah right those articles are from big corporations who just want > > > to make profit on poor developers.... But do some searches yourself, > > > you'll find tons of reference on the subject. > > > > > > Here's what I get of MVC in JSF : > > > > > > Controler = FrontController + event dispatchers > > > Model = backing beans (data model) + UI components (ui model) > > > View = renderers + the view handler > > > > > > So where am I wrong? Please give me some technical details for once > > > instead of saying I don't get it. > > > > > > By the way, I develop JSF applications using Vanilla Eclipse and my > > > coworkers do to. Tools support is not why we have chosen JSF. > > > > > > > > > On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > This (below) has nothing to do with smarts. It has to do with the > > > purpose > > > > of JSF. The same was true of Visual Basic. A genius might use it > or > > > build > > > > it or whatever. Indeed, I have friends smarter than me for sure who > > > worked > > > > for years with Visual Basic. But, it was made for the technically > > > > challenged and is a tool, nonetheless. JSF, I must assume, was > built > > > the > > > > way it was as an answer to the .NET challenge. Myself, I think that > is > > > a > > > > mistake, but I understand the reasoning. I am not against JSF, > never > > > have > > > > been. > > > > > > > > <snip> > > > > On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > JSF is built for those who are > > > > > > technically challenged and for tools. > > > > > > > > > > Ok, once again people who use JSF aren't smart, huh wait > "technically > > > > > challenged". If it isn't a fallacy I wonder what it is... > > > > > > > > </snip> > > > > > > > > This (below) notion that JSF has a front controller is plain > bogus. I > > > > recommend you follow up on this, check definitions, etc. (aside from > > > those > > > > marketing definitions Craig has offered) and think it through. Try > the > > > > following sort of basic introduction to the front controller > pattern: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/FrontController.html > > > > http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/index.html > > > > > > > > Mostly, I think, you need to take a look at how the model / view / > > > > controller are connected in your web architecture, with a clear > > > > understanding, as Ted has pointed out, that the web MVC decoupling > is: > > > > > > > > controller --> model --> view > > > > > > > > If you chose to couple everything, then I am not interested in your > > > ideas. > > > > Someone else might be, but I am not. > > > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > If you had taken a serious look at JSF you will see it isn't page > > > > > controller based but front controller based. FacesServlet is > > > > > equivalent to the Struts ActionServlet, the big difference is that > JSF > > > > > doesn't include straight out of the book an Application > Controller. It > > > > > focuses on the MVC patterns in which by the way "C" stand for > input > > > > > controller and not application controller, something a lot of > people > > > > > don't get (quite well explained in Fowler book, a worth reading). > > > > > > > > > > > > </snip> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its > > > back." > > > > ~Dakota Jack~ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Alexandre Poitras > > > Québec, Canada > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its > back." > > ~Dakota Jack~ > > > > > > > -- > Alexandre Poitras > Québec, Canada > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
