On 6 January 2014 22:18, Thomas Broyer <t.bro...@gmail.com> wrote: > Le 6 janv. 2014 22:34, "Stephen Connolly" <stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com > > > a écrit : > > > > I don't want a religious war. If Gradle or ANT are a better fit for the > way > > some people think about building software... well good for them... and > the > > faster we can help them realise that Maven takes a different tack the > > better. > > > > I happen to believe that the power of Maven comes from being model driven > > rather than procedural, which ultimately allows for a richer IDE > > experience, but consequently you lose some flexibility in your build > > process. It is a tradeoff I happen to like the Maven balance of, but I am > > not so arrogant to presume that Maven's balance suits everyone. > > > > The Maven repository has grown beyond just Maven, so that is no longer a > > key differentiator for Maven. > > > > The differentiator is in the declarative build rather than procedural > > build... > > I disagree (when comparing with Gradle). The differentiator to me is going > beyond the build tool: project management and comprehension tool. Things > like the m-release-p, m-scm-p, m-site-p, etc. No other tool has those > AFAICT, and not everybody wants or needs them. > On the negative side: linear lifecycle, fixed number of classpaths (scopes) > that forces you to use separate modules (not a problem per se) thus put > files in separate folder trees (more of an issue, even if it means losing > IDE support), etc. Many of which contribute to making it really hard to > migrate from Ant to Maven. > > > With Ant you have a mostly pure procedural build. > > > > With Maven you have a mostly pure declarative build. > > > > With Gradle you have a hodge-podge mix of both. > > > > (By declarative, I mean <packaging>jar</packaging> is all I need to > > declare, maven knows how everything fits into that) > > "apply plugin: java" is all you need to declare in Gradle ;-) > > (OK, you also need a couple other lines to deploy to a Maven or Ivy repo, > but no more than in a POM) >
*but* if you see a maven build, you know it pretty much has to be declarative... if you see a gradle build it can add a whole procedural set of steps quite trivially on top.. (you can also add procedural stuff to maven, but it is hard and ugly because of the syntax and the way maven forces you to work) Basically I view the main "advantage" of gradle as it's main "disadvantage"... others are free to invert that point of view if/as they see fit, but I have yet to see the benefits of the flexibility that gradle adds... I have only seen downsides... I'll not go ramming my PoV down your mouth... as long as you don't try and ram your PoV down mine ;-) > > > So let's let others go to the tools that suit their tastes, and the > faster > > that we help them there, the less bitching about how "Maven is crap > > (because it doesn't suit my taste)" we will hear. > > > > It's like marmite: you either love it or hate it! > > > > > > On 6 January 2014 20:08, Russell Gold <russell.g...@oracle.com> wrote: > > > > > Several sentences sounds good. But here’s another question. Comparing > > > Maven to ant is almost too easy in terms of advantages. Is gradle now a > > > serious competitor (I had been working on converting an enormous > project to > > > maven, but the architect decided to switch to gradle, so I am > particularly > > > sensitive to the issue). I can see some superficial advantages of > gradle > > > that might appeal to some projects. Is it better to ignore or address > this? > > > > > > On Jan 6, 2014, at 3:02 PM, Stephen Connolly < > > > stephen.alan.conno...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Monday, 6 January 2014, Ron Wheeler wrote: > > > > > > > >> I think that the target has to be people deciding whether to try > Maven. > > > >> They initially want to know what it does and why it is better than > Ant > > > or > > > >> whatever they are using now. > > > >> > > > >> Trying to teach Maven in a single sentence is too much to ask. > > > >> > > > >> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed > in > > > a > > > >> repository." doesn't sound like it will help build my application. > > > >> At the start, one doesn't have any artifacts or own a repository. > > > >> > > > >> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which > has > > > >> great dependency management features." > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we should hint at the descriptive philosophy rather than the > > > > procedural philosophy most tools take > > > > > > > > > > > >> is pretty clear for a single sentence description and it true. > > > >> Maybe we can come up with a follow-up sentence to amplify/explain > this > > > one. > > > >> Most programmers or project managers should be able to find the time > to > > > >> read 2 or maybe 3 sentences before deciding on a build tool. > > > >> As long as each sentence draws the person deeper into Maven, that > would > > > >> work. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes that is the idea > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Ron > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On 06/01/2014 12:57 PM, Russell Gold wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant now does > have > > > >>> the ability to use those dependency features. > > > >>> > > > >>> I went through this when creating my video course (not in the sig > > > because > > > >>> this is work email). It’s not clear to me that you can make a one > > > sentence > > > >>> description that will provide sufficiently useful information > unless > > > >>> something like: > > > >>> > > > >>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts > managed > > > in a > > > >>> repository." > > > >>> > > > >>> But that is not going to help people coming new to the project. > > > >>> > > > >>> I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for this > > > >>> description people deciding whether to try Maven? People trying to > > > learn > > > >>> how to use it? > > > >>> > > > >>> On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <roy.ly...@cmegroup.com> > > > wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> on > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Siteit > > > >>>> says: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> "Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension > > > tool." > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> I would like to submit my short description for review. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which > has > > > >>>> great dependency management features." > > > >>>> > > > >>>> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core, > this > > > >>>> is what it really is. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org > > > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@maven.apache.org > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org > > > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@maven.apache.org > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> Ron Wheeler > > > >> President > > > >> Artifact Software Inc > > > >> email: rwhee...@artifact-software.com > > > >> skype: ronaldmwheeler > > > >> phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102 > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@maven.apache.org > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Sent from my phone > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@maven.apache.org > > > > > > >
