Dave, as promised and while you still insist saying that we were deeply wrong, we have put on-line two different updates
1) https://gsvit.wordpress.com/2015/01/12/further-measurements-on-the-md-6k-n-pump-used-by-tadahiko-mizuno/ 2) https://gsvit.wordpress.com/2014/12/10/analysis-of-jed-rothwells-report-about-his-calorimetry-performed-on-mizunos-cell/ The first one shows how you are terribly wrong with your calculations based on the kinetic energy only. We show that your assumption are completely wrong just referring to usual pump working diagram. In the pump under test you can not have simultaneously maximum head and maximum flow rate; the working point we chose was such that we had almost the same working conditions Mizuno had. Please take your time to read our post before commenting. The major result is that we measured 43°C in the pump body very close to the water so it is really easy to understand that, despite what Jed says, the pump motor delivers a lot of heat to the water; it is this the power we measure and it is by far much more that the mechanical power (3 W maximum from the data sheet). But, let me say that the second link is even more interesting [you have to go to the end of the article, the Appendix]: we set up a software simulation tools and were able to replicate by simulation the Mizuno's measurement. It was enough to evaluate the overall thermal transmittance of the system that is constant at least for the considered temperature range. If we simulate the Mizuno's curve starting from a time instant when the reactor is no more generating excess heat, it is possible to evaluate the only source of heat: the pump. We have to use only the room temperature as provided by Mizuno's data and the system starting temperature. The pump power turns out to be about 4 W. So we get comparable results by using very different methods 1) Pump theory and data sheet 2) Experiment 3) Simulations All the rest are only free words. We are going to apply the simulation to all the Mizuno's experiments to see if we can get those curves without any excess heat. Regards and take it easy. Please, consider to read all the articles in our site concerning the Mizuno's experiment. Gigi aka Giancarlo 2015-01-12 19:09 GMT+01:00 David Roberson <dlrober...@aol.com>: > Bob, > > You have uncovered a pump specification that proves that the replication > work by Gigi and allies is not accurate. They report to have determined > that approximately 4.5 watts of thermal power is being absorbed by the > circulating water under their test condition. This amount of reported > power is clearly more than the pump should add and they need to explain why > we should accept their data as accurate. > > Also, I have performs extensive calculations within a spreadsheet that is > based upon the lift head versus fluid flow rate of this model pump. It is > capable of delivering less than 1 watt of fluid power into the water > coolant under the best of conditions. My actual calculation is .75 watts > at 6 liters per minute which I rounded off for convenience to 1 watt. I > included both potential as well as kinetic energy related powers. > > Any additional power imparted to the water must come from pump friction > and thermal leakage through the construction materials. Without further > careful measurements we or Gigi can not assume that the pump used by > Mizuno is operating at its specification limit of 3 watts. Of course the > measurement of 4.5 watts by Gigi is certainly not representative of a pump > that is in good condition. > > The pump manual has several warnings about how easy it is to damage it and > that strongly suggests that Gigi and his team has done just that in order > to obtain their non representative performance. No one but Mizuno knows > the status of his pump during those tests so the only conclusion that can > conservatively be drawn is that the skeptical report by Gigi and team > should not be considered valid. > > The pump manual states that the water reservoir must be at least 1 foot > above the pump input port in order to prevent possible air intake along > with the coolant water. Operation under conditions that do not meet this > requirement can damage the pump according to the manual. Unfortunately, in > both of the cases being discussed this was not done. The setup used by > Gigi very clearly shows the pump mounted above the Dewar by several > inches. The same appears true for Mizuno's experiment. > > Dave > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Cook <frobertc...@hotmail.com> > To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com> > Sent: Mon, Jan 12, 2015 12:15 pm > Subject: Re: [Vo]:"Report on Mizuno's Adiabatic Calorimetry" revised > > Jed-- > > I have researched the pump characteristics further and find that this pump > has a low efficiency and would use at most about 3 watts of power in > heating the circulating water. This is consistent with what you have > stated. > > I am not sure how Mizuno measured the 10.8 Watts of power used by the > pump. I think the pump specifications indicate the pump uses about 22 > watts. However, The specifications for the amperage and voltage during > operation would indicate the 29 watts I suggested some time ago. I plan to > talk with the pump vendor technical staff to better understand the > performance of this type of pump and the wattage vs voltage/amperage specs > and the efficiency. I will report on what I find. However, it would > appear the pump is only about 15% efficient at best in converting > electrical energy into the mechanical energy causing the circulation. At > low circuit frictional pressure drop (low heads) it appears even less > efficient. I was wrong in assuming an efficient pump. > > I do not have the same report that you have identifying the pump > specifications on page 24. My version of your report, dated November 14, > 2014, does not include the specification you state exists on the side of > the pump body. In addition I do not think I have the same description of a > "baseline" that your make reference to. > > I think by "baseline" you mean a condition at which the energy introduced > into the circulating system by the pump creates a temperature of the > reactor and water bath and all the reactor internals that is the same and > in equilibrium with a non-changing differential temperature between the > ambient atmosphere and the water bath. This would allow a reasonable > determination of the average thermal resistance of the insulation and > hence a measure of the approach to a desired adiabatic condition of the > test setup. In any case a good description of "baseline" conditions is > warranted. > > In addition, if you have information as to when it was determined that > excess reaction heat was produced in the reactor, this would be helpful in > comparing temperature profiles with rates of change, compared to times when > there was no excess energy input to the system. For example, when is the > excess energy produced with respect to the time the spikes of electrical > heat are applied to the electrodes? In this regard it seems that the > excess energy production, if any, does not continue indefinitely, since the > temperature increase levels off and then decrease without the spikes of > electrical input to the electrodes. However, does it continue in the time > frame between spikes of input energy to the electrodes. > > The temperature of the system and water bath should return to the > "baseline" with time, if the only input is the energy was from the > pump. If excess energy form a reaction continues the temperature should > level out at somewhat above the baseline. This would be nice confirmation > of excess energy. > > I summary I have the following additional questions: > > What is the date of your latest report of the Mizuno test? Does it exist > on-line: If so, what is the link? Is there any information from the Mizuno > testing as to when excess energy from an unknown reaction starts and > stops? Is there a good definition of "baseline"? > > Bob > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com> > *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com > *Sent:* Saturday, January 10, 2015 8:18 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:"Report on Mizuno's Adiabatic Calorimetry" revised > > Bob Cook made two large mistakes here. I wish he -- and others -- would > > >> The Iwaik pump, if running, would have added heat at about 29 watts per >> the pump specification. >> > > In my report, p. 24, I list the pump specifications. Mizuno measured the > pump input power with the watt meter. It is 10.8 W, not 29 W. However, only > a tiny fraction of this power is delivered to the water. Mizuno measured > how much is delivered. It was only ~0.4 W. If you do not think so, explain > why Fig. 19 is wrong. > > You can confirm that nearly all the electric power converts to heat at > the pump motor. Touch a pump and you will feel the heat radiating. Many > pumps have fans that blow the hot air out of the motor. With a good pump, > the water is at the other end away from the motor, and very little heat > transfers to it. > > > >> This was more than enough to raise the temperature without any >> reactor heat source given the recorded decrease of 1.7 watts when nothing >> was running or reacting. >> > > Suppose this is true. Suppose it was 1.7 W and suppose that raises the > temperature by 4 deg C. Pick any temperature rise you like: suppose it > raises the temperature by 10 deg C, or 20 deg C. Here is the point, which I > have made again and again: > > THE TEMPERATURE WAS ALREADY that much higher when the test began. The > pump runs all the time. Using this method we measure from that starting > baseline temperature up to the terminal temperature of the test. The pump > heat -- *however much there is* -- is already included in the baseline. > Therefore we never include it in excess heat. > > You need to answer these points if you want to have a serious discussion. > > - Jed > >
