On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Mark Iverson <zeropo...@charter.net>wrote:
> John: > > Let me ask a few questions so I can better understand what you're > proposing... > > What is your interpretation of the magnetic moment present in all elementary > particles where electrical currents don't even come into play? > > Of course atoms can be affected by a magnetic field... this is the basis > upon which NMR works!!! > > Ok, so are these effected atoms composed of charges? Are these charges moving? (spinning, orbiting or flying through a cloud chamber? > There is no electrical current in a permanent magnet, yet, they generate > a magnetic field > Are you saying they generate the magnetic field without movement of the charges that make up the atom? > ... and other things (ferrous metals and other magnets) definitely are > affected (i.e., have a force exerted upon them) by that mag-field. So I > guess I'm at a loss to see how you can say that there is no such thing as a > real physical magnetic field -- that's its only an illusion. > I think I have covered it above, these things work just like the electrons moving in the wire, electrons orbit, they may spin, the nucleus can spin too. -Mark > ------------------------------ > *From:* John Berry [mailto:aethe...@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:50 PM > > *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com > *Subject:* Re: [Vo]: Why are the electric and magnetic fields > perpendicular? > > Ok, you need to consider my answer if you want to understand this. > > You are assuming that a thing called a magnetic field really exists and > this is the reason for your problem. > > Consider first how to interact with or detect magnetic fields, first take > the Neutron, what reaction does it have to a magnetic field? > > As far as I am aware, essentially none. > > Ok so what else is matter made up of, ok Protons and electrons, so how do > these particles with electrical potential react to a magnetic field? > > By default they don't! > > Ok, so if you are moving the charges relatively to the magnetic field then > what happens? Well if cutting across the so called magnetic field they feel > a force perpendicular to the magnetic field and in a direction based on > their electrical sign. > So in an EM wave we have electrons and protons feel a force at right angles > to the so called magnetic component, in other words they feel the electric > component. > > So what can be detected on the magnetic axis? NOTHING. > > Of course a magnet will align it's self to the magnetic axis, but why is > this? > > Well if you consider an air core electromagnet turned off it shows no > reaction to the magnetic field, now if you put DC through it, it will > respond by aligning with the external magnetic field, however if we look at > each element of this coil we find that the force is placed on moving > electrons because they are cutting through the magnetic field, the force on > the electrons is perpendicular to the magnetic field. > > Ok, so an electromagnet feeling any "magnetic" force is really just an > illusion. > > And the same is true of ferrous materials where the magnetic field is again > created by moving charges. > > Ok, so how come magnetic fields exist only to establish an electric > component at 90 degrees? > > Well consider what makes magnetic fields is: moving charges, and what feels > magnetic fields is: moving charges. > And what they feel is perpendicular and dependent on the sign of the moving > charge. > > So if we look at moving charges, can we understand how these forces can > arise? > > Actually YES! > > If you look at every source of a magnetic field you can calculate the > expected force by looking solely at how motion is distorting the electric > field. > > Ok, so in a piece of wire the protons and electrons are in about the same > number and their electric fields sum to zero outside the wire (the electric > field from every particle in your body stretches out to infinity), then if > you apply a time varying electric field to the wire the mobile electrons > wiggle back and fourth. > This movement effects their field in much the same way that wiggling a hose > makes the stream bend. > > The protons aren't wiggling so you can now look at what would happen from > having electric fields from the electrons in a wire bent as it carries out > into space: /\/\/\/\/\/\/\|/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ > This clearly shows how the electric component comes about. > > Ok, so how about a DC electromagnet with an air core? > > Well what happens when matter moves? Well since Einstein and before the > answer is that contraction of length takes place. > So if we have a wire and move the electrons but not the protons, what > should happen to the electrons field? > It should be squashed, so consider the spherical field around an electron, > imagine now lots of electrons in a row like peals on a necklace, look at the > vectors of force from that electric field. > > Look at how any field lines not perpendicular to this train of electrons is > cancelled by the other electrons fields, now if you were to pancake these > electric fields a bit less field at the sides would be wasted and cancelled > between them, and more in the perpendicular direction. > > I hope you are able to visualize this, this would create an unmasked > electric field of sorts, this electric field also should exist and has been > experimentally measured to exist as the Hooper Motional E field and it > should exist even if you look on magnetic fields as real. > > Now I can hear you asking how this creates any illusion of a magnetic > field, well let's now look at another parallel section of wire carrying a > current, now there are different ways to view this as it is very much multi > choice, however the moving electrons in this other wire for arguments sake > are moving in the same direction and they may not see those electrons as > pancaked, instead they see the protons in the other wire as pancaking and > attracting them toward the other wire. > Meanwhile the protons in this wire are seeing the electrons in the other > wire as pancaking and attracting them. > > This gives rise to the expected forces, only we have looked at the charges > and the electric field only. > > So please consider when talking about magnetism, only moving electric > fields/charges create it, and only moving charges can feel it as an electric > field at 90 degrees and in a direction dependent of their sign. > > This is as far as I am aware considered conventional and accepted. > > John, an INTJ (I feel this post should be proof read, but I can't be > bothered :) > > On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 6:36 AM, Mark Iverson <zeropo...@charter.net>wrote: > >> You're right Terry, I don't like your answer! >> >> And I don't think any of the other explanations answered the question >> adequately... >> >> From my purely physical model, it would be a natural cause-effect >> relationship due to a polarizable >> vacuum... i.e., the electric and magnetic fields of mainstream physics are >> simply a result of the >> polarization of the local vacuum, and how particles respond to that >> polarization. >> >> With all the sophistication and accuracy to umpteen decimal places in >> atomic physics/QM, how come we >> can't explain WHY they're perpendicular! I think any theory should have >> to explain the simple >> observations first before delving down into more difficult and esoteric >> aspects of physics. >> >> -Mark >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:37 AM >> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Why are the electric and magnetic fields perpendicular? >> >> You are not going to like my answer: "Because it is their nature." >> >> Yeah. Told you. >> >> It is best understood by studying the Lorentz Force and working your way >> from there. I like this >> site: >> >> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hph.html (click on the bubble >> to expand) >> >> but, there's always Wikipedia. >> >> Now Brian Greene would have me say "Because it is their nature in this >> universe." >> >> T >> >> >
