Here's a good PDF for the static dielectric constants of electrolytes. http://downloads.olisystems.com/ResourceCD/MixedSolventElectrolytes/Dielectr ic.pdf
ABD wrote: "A 'dielectric' is an insulator. The electrolyte is not an insulator. This system is like two capacitors with a common plate. The two dielectrics are the two cell walls. The common plate is the electrolyte in the cell. There are then two outer metal plates." I disagree. Pure water is an *excellent* dielectric/insulator, and adding ions only makes it a LEAKY capacitor. (I remember someone telling me that the coolant used in the early Cray's was *pure* water; and did not Tesla use water-filled jugs for capacitors?). To precisely describe any dielectric, one has to consider both the energy storage aspect as well as the conductivity (resistive) aspect! To be precise, the electrolyte used in LENR experiments *is* a leaky/lossy capacitor. >From wikipedia's entry on relative permittivity: ==================== Lossy medium "... relative permittivity for lossy materials can be formulated as (equation may not copy): in terms of a "dielectric conductivity" σ (units S/m, siemens per meter), which "sums over all the dissipative effects of the material; it may represent an actual [electrical] conductivity caused by migrating charge carriers and it may also refer to an energy loss associated with the dispersion of ε' [the real-valued permittivity]. ==================== The sigma variable in the above equation is the conductivity (S/m) resulting from the mobile ions, and represents a *RESISTIVE* property to the salt solution. The dielectric constant or 'energy storage' part due to the water molecules is still present. -Mark -----Original Message----- From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [mailto:a...@lomaxdesign.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 9:47 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:SPAWAR has yet to respond re simple error in claims of effects of external high voltage dc fields inside a conducting electrolyte: Rich Murray 2012.03.01 2012.07.02 At 10:17 PM 7/3/2012, Jeff Driscoll wrote: >Here are my two cents from reading up on dielectrics: > >With the 6000 V capacitor isolated from the electrolyte by the plastic, >the electrolyte acts as a dielectric which reduces the E field in the >electrolyte almost to zero in the middle but increases the the >capacitance of the capacitor. Arrggh. A "dielectric" is an insulator. The electrolyte is not an insulator. This system is like two capacitors with a common plate. The two dielectrics are the two cell walls. The common plate is the electrolyte in the cell. There are then two outer metal plates. >If there is zero ionic current then I assume there has to be zero E >field in the center of the electrolyte. There is significant ionic current from the electrolytic current generated by the cell power supply. There is very little current through the cell walls. There is not "zero ionic current." There are two currents here, the electrolytic current from the normal operation of the electrolytic cell, it's on the order of 1 mA maybe up to 500 mA. There is a current in addition to this, from the high voltage supply, based on the leakage through the acrylic, I estimated at about 0.5 nA. That is less than a million times smaller. Undetectable under the experimental conditions. > As soon as the 6000 V is >applied, there is a momentary current in the electrolyte and a >polarization of the dielectric electrolyte. After that there is zero >current assuming the plastic is an infinite insulator. That is correct. This is why I mentioned DC. When the voltage changes, current will flow until the dielectric becomes polarized. Basically, current will appear to flow through a capacitor until the capacitor is charged. What is happening is that charge is building up on the plates. There need not be any actual current flowing *through* the capacitor, but the effect is as if there were. >So the positive ends of the water molecules are facing the negative >plate of the capacitor and the negative ends of the water molecules are >facing the positive plate of the capacitor. This has confused the electrolyte with the dielectric, i.e., the plastic. Immediately next to the acrylic, there would be some level of polarization of the water. But the field strength within the water would only be tiny, far less than full polarization would represent. The water, in this cell, is essentially at ground potential. And that's interesting in itself. Is the HV supply isolated, floating, or is it 6 KV with respect to ground? If the latter, then there is no voltage across one cell wall, and 6 KV across the other. It really doesn't make any difference. There is no discernable electric field inside the cell, within the electrolyte, from the external high-voltage field. Maybe it's homeopathic.
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